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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1773186 times)

scrdest

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4005 on: February 13, 2014, 12:43:52 pm »

No, keep it going, those Scots are probably crypto-Stalinists. The Daily Mail told me so.
They told me that I should have had cancer fifty times by the time I was three due to the stuff I eat.

No, greatorder, you are the cancer.

And then greatorder was a zombie.
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We are doomed. It's just that whatever is going to kill us all just happens to be, from a scientific standpoint, pretty frickin' awesome.

Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4006 on: February 13, 2014, 01:07:29 pm »

the nazis have several good reasons to be shunned, but we could learn a thing or two from them nowadays - something along the lines of marginalizing political opponents so you can actually build what you were almost-elected to build, or occultism. i'd donate to a campaign to bring an occultist government into power for shits, giggles and the tolerance they'd have towards whatever whoever would want to practice
LS, you're one of my favorite politics posters around here, for precisely that sort of stuff~
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4007 on: February 13, 2014, 01:21:37 pm »

Here's an interesting link: RT compares anti-Soviet propaganda art in Western media from 1980 and anti-Russian propaganda art from 2014.
These are all private artists, a few of them even fully independent. "Propaganda" is not really the right word.

Who established that the creation of propaganda is exclusively limited to artists working in government agencies and that private artists cannot make propaganda?

Remember, it's the Jews that are making Russia hostile to foreigners, arrest dissidents all around the country, and makes them unprepared for hundreds-of-billions-of-dollars-in-budget Olympic events. I think they must've spent all that money on the troops, because it wasn't spent in the half pipes or the hotels.

I'd argue the 1980 fear campaign was less necessary, but it's quite telling that Russian reactionaries will label any criticism of Putin's perfect Russia as western propaganda [Especially blaming it on the ever-present 'Jewish/Liberal/US media'].

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeews! Jewish propaganda!

We actually need more Israeli propaganda/state TV news stations, to show these people what actual Jewish mud-slinging looks like. Trust me, we have plenty of criticism to lay at the feet of Putin's perfect Russia and they should be glad we don't.

Are you talking about crazy Americans in RT's comment section? The text of the article had nothing to do with Jews.

"I know it's true because I read it in the Daily Mail"

For some reason, the people commenting on Daily Mail's website are very sympathetic towards the policies of the Russian government. Only American conservatives are bigger fans of Putin than them.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4008 on: February 13, 2014, 01:24:25 pm »

The Daily mail is a mystery, wrapped in an enigma.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4009 on: February 13, 2014, 01:49:14 pm »

the nazis have several good reasons to be shunned, but we could learn a thing or two from them nowadays - something along the lines of marginalizing political opponents so you can actually build what you were almost-elected to build, or occultism. i'd donate to a campaign to bring an occultist government into power for shits, giggles and the tolerance they'd have towards whatever whoever would want to practice
LS, you're one of my favorite politics posters around here, for precisely that sort of stuff~
LS's posts are like prose poetry where the author strives to be wrong on every possible level.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4010 on: February 13, 2014, 02:21:38 pm »

Are you talking about crazy Americans in RT's comment section?

Oh, I see, so when Russians blame Jews primarily for [honest] media coverage in Russia TV's commentary section, [which only allows views held by anti-US and antisemetic posters] I should be aware it's 'crazy Americans'. A proper Russian explanation. I'll keep on watch for more of the imperialist regime posting comments in mundane RT articles.

And the article is as obnoxious and stupid as the commenters. The majority of the things made example of are not propaganda. They were made by independent protesters and news groups, and of those I only see a moderately symbolic Times cover or two, so the majority is hippie beatnick protest buttons and art. It's actually a price we pay for freedom of expression in our society where we allow people to disagree with things, and even stage counter-movements! Its quite the amazing thing when you allow people in a society to hold different views of a country and their policies.


Actually, I think I just had an epiphany, I think I understand why being gay in Russia is considered propaganda: Having a different opinion than Master Putin is propaganda. Saying Russia is anything but the land of true economic freedom and political openness is propaganda. Not eating Pelmeni and Shashlik? Propaganda. Being Muslim? Propaganda.

I bet writing left handed is propaganda too.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:32:43 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4011 on: February 13, 2014, 03:03:05 pm »

Who established that the creation of propaganda is exclusively limited to artists working in government agencies and that private artists cannot make propaganda?
Propaganda is not a word used to describe independents making a political statement, then everything political would be propaganda.
Actually, I think I just had an epiphany, I think I understand why being gay in Russia is considered propaganda: Having a different opinion than Master Putin is propaganda. Saying Russia is anything but the land of true economic freedom and political openness is propaganda. Not eating Pelmeni and Shashlik? Propaganda. Being Muslim? Propaganda.

I bet writing left handed is propaganda too.
At this moment, I am euphoric, not because of any phoney free society's blessing, but because I am enlightened by my propaganda.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4012 on: February 13, 2014, 03:03:58 pm »

Are you talking about crazy Americans in RT's comment section?

Oh, I see, so when Russians blame Jews primarily for [honest] media coverage in Russia TV's commentary section, [which only allows views held by anti-US and antisemetic posters] I should be aware it's 'crazy Americans'. A proper Russian explanation. I'll keep on watch for more of the imperialist regime posting comments in mundane RT articles.
If you are talking about RT, than I need to say that the majority of people writing comments in RT's comment section are Americans or Arabs. Russians don't go there. If you want to see Russians commenting on RT's websites, please visit russian.rt.com or inotv.rt.com
Here's for comparison the same article from RT but translated into Russian, complete with genuine Russians in the comments.

Generally, Russians don't write comments at Western news sites at all, unless the article is very anti-Russian. Then they appear en masse and start writing comments wishing the author of the article, the staff of the website and the whole American people to die as soon as possible.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4013 on: February 13, 2014, 03:46:45 pm »

Generally, Russians don't write comments at Western news sites at all, unless the article is very anti-Russian. Then they appear en masse and start writing comments wishing the author of the article, the staff of the website and the whole American people to die as soon as possible.
See, people? They're just like us.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4014 on: February 13, 2014, 05:47:27 pm »

Who established that the creation of propaganda is exclusively limited to artists working in government agencies and that private artists cannot make propaganda?
Propaganda is not a word used to describe independents making a political statement, then everything political would be propaganda.

In my opinion, propaganda and political agitation are very similar - if a report or statement aims to sway someone into taking some political position towards one thing or another, than it's propaganda. If an American news channel broadcasts a report stating that totalitarian regime in Russia is oppressing the free people and proclaiming that America must take action against Russia, it is propaganda. If a Russian news channel broadcasts a reports stating that America is interfering in Russian affairs and proclaims that Russia must defend itself against America, than it's also propaganda. Hell, even this post is propaganda, because I try to propagate my political views here and convince you that they are right. If your horse is hungry, bring him here, because there'll probably be a lot of straw here.

Unbiased reporting and propaganda are not mutually exclusive. Take for example BBC's coverage of the war in Syria: articles tell us about the official position of the Syrian government, so we may say that it is unbiased. But, the propaganda content is hidden in the articles' wording, for instance many claims stating that the Syrian Army commits war crimes are attributed to "activists". Many articles don't tell us about the political allegiance of activists, so one may assume that these activists (or at least some of them) are independent and thus unbiased. If the activist is unbiased, then his claim is very likely true (he's throwing a serious accusation, why would he lie about that?), and the official position of the Syrian government stating that Syrian Army doesn't commit war crimes and that rebels commit war crimes is very likely false. But, the information attributed to activists usually comes from opposition activists and organizations affiliated with the opposition, like the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. Their information is biased, like all reports written by one of the belligerents about their enemy, but thanks to their political allegiance being left out, it was presented as unbiased.

Western media generally don't mention the allegiance of political forces and organizations they like - pro-Western activists and followers of pro-Western political organizations are presented as members of civil society or simply activists, while pro-government activists and followers are described with terms like "government supporters" or "supporters of [insert name here]'s regime". Sometimes, the political status of anti-government followers isn't provided at all, and protest against the government organized and carried out by members of a political organization is presented as a protest by ordinary people. It is used to imply that the pro-Western opposition has more popular support than the government, and that the opposition members are more unbiased and honest than the government supporters, which are basically apologetics.

Another hidden propaganda method is generalization. If A happens to a few people representing (or claiming to represent) a group of people, then A happens to every single member of that group. If a gay rights activist is beaten by hooligans for whatever reason, then the absolute majority of gays in Russia experience the same. As a result, we have all reports in the Western media about homosexuals being cruelly persecuted in Russia, which are based on incidents that happened to a group of people taken and presented as usual occurrence to all Russian homosexuals. BBC reports about civilians being killed in Syria by collateral damage by taking interviews from civilians that ultimately retell the claims provided by the opposition. It is implied that the majority of other civilians on the ground experience the same. The people interviewed might not even be actual civilians, maybe they were paid to pose as ones, but it doesn't matter. The information is presented to reinforce the opposition's claims, and not to tell the unbiased story about the impact of the war on civilians.

Russian columnist Viktor Marahovsky from the staunchly anti-Western and anti-liberal Russian website "Odnako" (one of the biggest and probably one of the most moderate Russian anti-Western news portals) rather unsubtly named such wording practices "Demospeak" (his Russian article can be found here; like all articles on the website it is propaganda that is not disguised as unbiased)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 05:55:02 pm by Guardian G.I. »
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and that is terrible
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4015 on: February 13, 2014, 05:57:31 pm »

I'm out of this one, nope. All I have to say is there very definitely is a disconnect here.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4016 on: February 13, 2014, 06:06:40 pm »

GI, you have a weird definition of propaganda. I'd argue it's about intent: If you want to convince regardless of facts, it's propaganda; if you want to convince by laying out the facts in front of your audience, it's not. It's a blurry line regardless, though.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4017 on: February 13, 2014, 08:02:21 pm »

--snip--
Regardless of what you think propaganda means or not, your view of western media is pretty one-sided. There are many well-frequented media outlets and they don't all report the same stuff. Especially the Syria coverage was not at all how you describe it, I've read many things about the opposition's war crimes too and interviews with refugees who were sincerely hoping for Assad to win.
Same with the Russia coverage, there was for example a bit of an outrage about the Khodorkovsky verdict, but there was also a lot of stuff critical about him being an oligarch using his money to gain political influence. Same with the Femen protests or Pussy Riot, their behaviour is not universally condoned in the press, just the government reaction is generally seen as way overblown. There was a lot of critical Sochi coverage, but there were counterstatements too, and bascially every major sports event is criticised heavily. Of course if violence against gays is pretty much condoned by the government and is committed systematically and at an alarming rate, there will not be much "unbiased" reporting, if violence against gays is regarded as a bad thing.
Maybe you need to read more newssites regularly to get a more differentiated view of this. If an issue interests me I check on a dozen German newspaper/magazine/tv news sites plus another dozen American and British ones, maybe a handful of French ones too, if I have the time. If you did that too, you'd notice that regular coverage is a lot more differentiated than you think and that "the West" has actually all kinds of opinions with only a few views that are generally agreed upon.

And by the way, regarding the Soviet associations in media coverage of Russia. Guess what kind of imagery the British boulevard press tends to use when reporting about minor political disagreements with Germany. It's a free press, they can say whatever they want, that doesn't necessarily mean it's what everybody believes or even that anybody takes it very seriously.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:27:26 pm by XXSockXX »
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Max White

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4018 on: February 13, 2014, 10:22:44 pm »

So I hear Belgian will be allowing the murder of innocent children at the hands of the Satan worshiping cult known as the 'medical profession'. You know if there is one group of people you can't trust with your childs standard of living, it is doctors...

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4019 on: February 14, 2014, 12:51:40 am »

Yeah, think they voted it tonight. Not a really important piece of legislation, because so few kids request euthanasia, but cool to have nonetheless.
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