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[Stuebi]

by the way, stuehl, do you guys still have that one thing where the residents of a given area gathered around and voted on whenever to accept someone as a swiss citizen or not?

i think that was only in a few cantons, but was awesome and solves every issue i'd have with immigration fiveever (that's more than fourever, americans told me so)

Never actually heard about this, tbh. Where did you get that from?

[XXSockXX]

I don't see why, having lots of people come to work and pay taxes for me sounds amazing.

Then again, half of the welfare recipients in Switzerland are foreigners.

A friend of mine works as a nurse in a Swiss hospital. Working conditions and pay are much better there than here in Germany. But almost all the nurses and many of the doctors in that hospital are German. For a lot of patients, especially the elderly, who can't really speak High German that well, this means they have to explain their problems in a semi-foreign language. There are courses to teach Swiss German to Germans, but even for Southern Germans this is not that easy to learn. German dialects can be pretty different from each other, this may seem a bit provincial, but language is an important part of what constitutes "feeling at home" for people. So while the backlash against foreigners might be a bad idea, it's also not coming entirely out of nowhere.

[LordSlowpoke]

by the way, stuehl, do you guys still have that one thing where the residents of a given area gathered around and voted on whenever to accept someone as a swiss citizen or not?

i think that was only in a few cantons, but was awesome and solves every issue i'd have with immigration fiveever (that's more than fourever, americans told me so)

Never actually heard about this, tbh. Where did you get that from?

only thing i can find right now is the "people's initiative for democratic naturalization", a referendum held june 2008, which was to "retain the right of deciding on the naturalisation of foreign citizens through a vote at municipal level"

so it must have existed

i'll report back if/when i find anything else

e: this is a fairly reliable source, is it not? original

i even have sources! not particularly good ones when it comes to the quantity of information but the vote was held and i'm fairly sure you know where to look for the stuff related to it yourself better than i could

[Sheb]

I don't see why, having lots of people come to work and pay taxes for me sounds amazing.

Then again, half of the welfare recipients in Switzerland are foreigners.

Sources for that? Most countries do have systems to kick out foreigners out of a job (even within the EU), so I'm surprised so many welfare recipients are foreigner.

[XXSockXX]

I don't see why, having lots of people come to work and pay taxes for me sounds amazing.

Then again, half of the welfare recipients in Switzerland are foreigners.

Sources for that? Most countries do have systems to kick out foreigners out of a job (even within the EU), so I'm surprised so many welfare recipients are foreigner.

Yeah, apparently this works a bit different in Switzerland, though they have just changed that to limit welfare access for Eu citizens.

The 50% number I read in this article, which cites this a source. The source is a campaign website, but I don't think they made up the numbers.

[Kicior]

in theory, it's fine, but as much as i hate to put the infodumps that i keep getting from that one guy who at some point i learned was polish and is still talking about the goddamn birdhouses from time to time to use it's relatively common for f.ex. west africans to come to locations such as krakow, woo women (or men, depends on gender) marry them and leave a week after with a sweet polish passport that grants entry to western europe

which is a pretty damn good deal actually, i'd do it if i were west african too

also this is the point where after mentioning the birdhouses i keep being bothered with again i would like to ask if birdhouses are sort of euphemism or politically charged issue in poland this shit is ridiculous

This sounds interesting, care to elaborate? I have never heard of birdhouses in this context. The most serious issue with Africans I remember was the case of "anti racist" activist (titled "anti-fascist of the year" in 2003 ) who infected women with HIV.

You'd have to look that up over Google, but one thing I know is that we'd ahve to pay a LOT less on customs when importing stuff. You seriously do NOT wanna know how much we pay for Tabletop-Minis over here.

But then you wouldn't be able to ban minarets so it's all swings and roundabouts

[XXSockXX]

by the way, stuehl, do you guys still have that one thing where the residents of a given area gathered around and voted on whenever to accept someone as a swiss citizen or not?

i think that was only in a few cantons, but was awesome and solves every issue i'd have with immigration fiveever (that's more than fourever, americans told me so)

Never actually heard about this, tbh. Where did you get that from?

only thing i can find right now is the "people's initiative for democratic naturalization", a referendum held june 2008, which was to "retain the right of deciding on the naturalisation of foreign citizens through a vote at municipal level"

so it must have existed

i'll report back if/when i find anything else

e: this is a fairly reliable source, is it not? original

i even have sources! not particularly good ones when it comes to the quantity of information but the vote was held and i'm fairly sure you know where to look for the stuff related to it yourself better than i could

This was just an initiative that was rejected.

[Stuebi]

by the way, stuehl, do you guys still have that one thing where the residents of a given area gathered around and voted on whenever to accept someone as a swiss citizen or not?

i think that was only in a few cantons, but was awesome and solves every issue i'd have with immigration fiveever (that's more than fourever, americans told me so)

Never actually heard about this, tbh. Where did you get that from?

only thing i can find right now is the "people's initiative for democratic naturalization", a referendum held june 2008, which was to "retain the right of deciding on the naturalisation of foreign citizens through a vote at municipal level"

so it must have existed

i'll report back if/when i find anything else

e: this is a fairly reliable source, is it not? original

i even have sources! not particularly good ones when it comes to the quantity of information but the vote was held and i'm fairly sure you know where to look for the stuff related to it yourself better than i could

Interesting, never actually knew that. I'd have to ask my dad if he knows anything about it, because i've never encountered it. Its possible that it just never was a thing around where I live, I can certainly see it happen in smaller Communities or other places. A "Kanton" (Basically states, but much smaller given we're so tiny.) can have a few regulations and laws that differ from others, meaning its quite possible it just never was a thing around the place where I live.

You'd have to look that up over Google, but one thing I know is that we'd ahve to pay a LOT less on customs when importing stuff. You seriously do NOT wanna know how much we pay for Tabletop-Minis over here.

But then you wouldn't be able to ban minarets so it's all swings and roundabouts

Absolutely, I wasnt meaning to say that its horrid. It has its ups and downs, and overall, I prefer the "Fuck you EU."-Method.

[scriver]

a) Because it's a major setback for the European idea.

If your "european idea" doesn't doesn't include the right to govern your own home, then why would anyone want it?

[Dutchling]

a) Because it's a major setback for the European idea.

If your "european idea" doesn't doesn't include the right to govern your own home, then why would anyone want it?

If it doesn't, one wouldn't call the vote a setback, as the vote would not have mattered then.

[Sheb]

scriver: You know that you can use this argument for just about any ideal?

"If your low-carbon ideal doesn't include the right to govern your own home, then why would anyone want it?"
-After voting to build a coal terminal

"If your "human right ideas" doesn't include the right to govern your own home, then why would anyone want it?"
-After voting to ban freedom of speech for brownies

Etc etc etc

P.S. I'm not saying the Swiss vote was like one of these, just pointing out that scriver's argument can be used against everything end is thus meaningless.

[scriver]

Those situations aren't alike at all, Sheb. They're. Arely even comparable.

[Sheb]

The basic argument "Any ideal that doesn't let us do as we want is a bad ideal, hence we can do what we want because we're never going to be a setback for a worthwhile ideal" stay the same.

[Helgoland]

If your "european idea" doesn't doesn't include the right to govern your own home, then why would anyone want it?

Why should a piece of paper determine whether you can move across an imaginary line? There should be no barriers, no laws, no mechanisms that privilege a small group while hurting all others. It should not matter whether you were born a few kilometers to the north or to the south.

(And yes, that's a normative statement.)

*The German-speaking Swiss, to be exact. To be honest, I don't like Austrians, Bavarians and many German peoples who also speak some sort of German either...

And there I was almost tempted to write a response.

It's more of a tongue-in-cheek dislike, Stuebi. After all, it's not xenophobia when you have to share a country with them

[LordSlowpoke]

it's not xenophobia if they already live with you?

i'm using the fuck out of that