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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1783556 times)

Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3555 on: January 25, 2014, 05:23:39 pm »

I read a while ago that Scotland wouldn't be able to avoid taking the Euro if they joined the EU. I haven't heard anything to the contrary since either.

FAKEDIT:
Found an article about it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10418890/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-accept-the-EU-template.html
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3556 on: January 25, 2014, 05:25:43 pm »

It's really easy to grow by percentage if there's barely anything to begin with (civil war, remember?) and you've got a giant resource potential being developed by foreign companies. The cash just has to flow somewhere.

I read a while ago that Scotland wouldn't be able to avoid taking the Euro if they joined the EU. I haven't heard anything to the contrary since either.

FAKEDIT:
Found an article about it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10418890/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-accept-the-EU-template.html

that's better for the eu as a whole, scotland's currency be damned

taking in more special snowflakes would make people think even less of the euro we've got enough problems with it as is
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 05:27:17 pm by LordSlowpoke »
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3557 on: January 25, 2014, 06:05:17 pm »

Owlbread, I meant day-to-day fields of politics - social issues, the Euro/EU membership, position on military interventions, health care policies, stance on drug legislation, etc. Just stuff, you know?

Well, I tend to find it easier to give points if you give specific questions but if you want my views in a personal capacity I can tell you that:

I am pro-EU membership, though I think we should debate it first and discuss the matter, referring to various think tanks/councils with advisors from Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Ireland and Switzerland. After a period of discussion/consultation we should then have a referendum.

My position on military interventions is that Scotland should never intervene in any war without a UN mandate, even then we should operate on a similar basis to Japan when they intervened in Iraq.

Regarding health care I support the retention and expansion of the NHS in Scotland with a variety of future goals for governments to aim for, including the extension of the NHS to some areas of dental care that are currently privatised e.g. reconstruction surgery. I think there should also be greater state protection in the care home system, if not extension of the NHS to that too.

I would support the adoption of drug laws in Scotland along Portuguese lines (i.e. an administrative issue, not a criminal one), although I believe the state should supply heroin addicts with heroin via the NHS. Drugs should be reclassified across the board; cannabis and other drugs in its class should be legal for purchase without fine, though there would be strict regulations and the industry would be taxed heavily. I do toy with the idea of ignoring the Portuguese system and removing any legal restrictions whatsoever (i.e. heroin and cocaine would be legal to possess) besides the regulations needed to control the quality of the drugs and who they were being sold to.

If there is a particular social issue you have in mind I may be able to answer that point a bit better.

I read a while ago that Scotland wouldn't be able to avoid taking the Euro if they joined the EU. I haven't heard anything to the contrary since either.

FAKEDIT:
Found an article about it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10418890/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-accept-the-EU-template.html

Here is a response from November 2011 regarding this particular story:

Quote from: Wings over Scotland, pro-independence blogger
The debate about whether an independent Scotland which joined or remained in the EU would be forced to adopt the Euro – and therefore be liable for a multi-billion-pound contribution to the eurozone bailout fund, the subject of much Unionist scaremongering in recent days – would appear to have reached a definitive end. A letter in today's Scotsman from Drew Scott, Professor of European Union Studies at the University of Edinburgh, backs up a blog on Thursday from SNP activist and EU law graduate Stephen Noon by noting that regardless of current rules which say new members must join the currency, the EU also stipulates that no member can do so without first being a member of the Exchange Rate Mechanism for two years.

ERM participation, however, is not compulsory for new members. And therefore any country joining the EU – whether as a successor state or from scratch – which doesn't want to join the Euro can simply elect to remain outwith the ERM, and therefore put off joining the Euro indefinitely. Noon points to the specific chapter and verse in EU regulations, and Professor Scott backs his conclusion. Scotland CAN join the EU but stay out of the Euro. The argument would seem to be over.

I hope this answers your question.

I don't think you can land anything bigger then a fighter jet on British Carriers. Plus you'd need to have a naval squadron to protect it plus numerous naval bases all across Africa along with another naval fleet delivering supplies to them.

I am sure we can work that out if we discuss the matter with local governments. We'd be providing humanitarian aid, after all. I doubt there would be any reason to attack us in any case.

Quote
Though the real question is how you get the British to give up a ship or even a soldier.  I doubt they'd let you take them as the individual soldiers signed up to fight in the British army. So you're likely going to be stuck with no equipment or troops and very little military knowledge of how to train them.

Yes, this question is often raised but it is easily answered. Scotland and England formed the UK in 1707 with the Act of Union. Without Scotland, there is an argument that the UK would actually cease to exist and a new state (with the same name) would need to be formed. Successor states then come into play, meaning that Scotland would be a successor state to the UK and would be entitled to a share of the assets. That share would include the two Scottish regiments in existence and also our share of the ships, along with embassies and all sorts. Our share would be worth many, many billions.

The issue with that is that there have been several acts of Union since then resulting in the current makeup of the UK including Northern Ireland and so on. It is a very grey area indeed. The UK's lawyers are arguing (without much attention from the Unionist press, you'll soon see why) that Scotland would not become a successor state because, rather than forming a voluntary Union with England, we actually agreed to have ourselves be annexed by England. In their own words, Scotland was "extinguished" as an entity. England then renamed itself Great Britain. Now, in my opinion, that is exactly what happened but it's all very debatable.

If this is indeed the case Scotland is a bit shafted, isn't it? We need to reapply for everything, we're out in the cold, the UK is all fine and dandy etc. That isn't how it works though. The UK, at the same time as arguing that we would be entitled to nothing post-independence, is saying that we need to take on "our share" of the British debt. They can't have it both ways. We have no legal obligation to take on any of the debt if we are a brand new state, only (some would argue) a moral one. The SNP suggest that we take on our share of the debt in exchange for "our share" of the British assets, including the regiments and the ships and so on.

That, good sir, should answer your question but if it does not please ask further and I will seek answers.

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Also the Scottish economy will be quite small.  You don't have the population to compete in GDP per country

In Scotland we talk about the three great Unionist arguments - "too wee, too poor, too stupid". You've already used the too stupid bit when you talked about us not knowing how to train our soldiers, but you've managed to use both too wee and too poor at the same time.

The SNP state the following:

Quote from: SNP
An independent Scotland would be one of the top ten richest countries in the OECD - ranking eighth amonst the 34 member countries in terms of GDP per person, compared to the UK which would rank 17th.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 06:39:00 pm by Owlbread »
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3558 on: January 25, 2014, 06:16:02 pm »

-snip-, double post
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3559 on: January 25, 2014, 06:28:14 pm »

Why on earth would you use a aircraft carrier for that purpose?  Why not use a normal freighter?
Presumably Mr. Sillars believes we will be running a very, very large hospital and apparently we're going to be flying patients there by jet rather than just by helicopter.
Kinda true considering at one point the most advanced British hospital was a Royal Navy one in the middle east. They can get big; but using an aircraft carrier for it is inefficient to say the least though. Might as well build a new ship for that purpose or just buy an old carrier. If the Chinese can turn their rust into a casino, with a bit more money you could do the same for a hospital. Though it really is just cheaper building a hospital on the spot.

You know, rather than using a freighter anchored somewhere off the coast of Somalia and flying patients in by helicopter (as may be more sensible), Mr. Sillars seems to be thinking big. He said that we needed to use soft power rather than military might in the future.
How does Mr. Sillars think of overpowering the million-headed hydra of London and all the soft power it commands?

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Owlbread, BTW what do you plan to do with division of British Navy\Airforce\Army? Military hardware isn't cheap at all, so I doubt that in case of Scottish independence that will be solved easily
You could say that, although we have a model for our military that should be quite affordable with an overall budget of around £2.5 billion. The sixth wealthiest country in the world i.e. us (or so I keep hearing) should be able to afford it. It may be comparable to that of Denmark, slightly larger perhaps than that of Ireland but I'm not entirely sure.
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That would put you with a budget just above that of Kazakhstan, Nigeria and Sudan. How you could you get close to being half the Royal Navy's size in personnel or a tenth in fleet size with or without the aid and training facilities of Wales and England and with just over 4% of Great Britain's current budget? You'd overspend this mark quickly. The 12 jets alone would take up 31% of that budget.

All the military bases that are within Scotland will continue to operate. Faslane will become the main base of operations for the Scottish Navy and also the main headquarters for the SDF as a whole.

No tanks? Would you seek to send your officers to the training centers in England or spend more money building your own in Scotland? How on Earth would you persuade the Royal Navy to give up any of their ships? Would you attempt to 'share' out ships from the RFA? Would you seek to get the same good r&d contracts with the Americans? Would an independent Scotland share any obligations in defending the overseas territories it currently contributes to the defence of? How would you even begin to negotiate an 'inheritance' of materiel from the armed forces the southern side will cling onto? Would cutting the budget so drastically not force the defence contractors based in Scotland across the Atlantic and across the Channel? What's to stop the southerners from taking everything that's not bolted down with them? Would there be a continued joint defence of Britain between north and south up to such an extent where intelligence was shared?
The logistics alone is mind boggling. It'd hardly help Scotland that the logistics arm is based in England either. Worse comes to worse you could just pull a Sweden and rely on your neighbours for defence. And in case this sleuth of questions come across as rhetorical gibberish, I am sincerely curious how this would turn out. The way I see it, independence has the potential to hilariously cripple both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom's military forces. I'd be honoured to hear from a much more optimistic viewpoint.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3560 on: January 25, 2014, 06:29:30 pm »

-Double post as well-
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 06:36:16 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3561 on: January 25, 2014, 06:49:29 pm »

Something tells me that the British military would probably be divided similarly as the Soviet Armed Forces got divided in 1991 - the army divisions stationed in Scotland would become a part of the Scottish Armed Forces, probably with the exception of nuclear weapons.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3562 on: January 25, 2014, 06:58:29 pm »

How does Mr. Sillars think of overpowering the million-headed hydra of London and all the soft power it commands?

If you're suggesting that we should be focusing on realising the soft power of London rather than focusing on Scottish independence, yes, that's a nice idea, but it won't happen unless the people of England mobilise in a movement for genuine change. Scottish Independence is the most powerful catalyst reformers have right now.

Quote
That would put you with a budget just above that of Kazakhstan, Nigeria and Sudan. How you could you get close to being half the Royal Navy's size in personnel or a tenth in fleet size with or without the aid and training facilities of Wales and England and with just over 4% of Great Britain's current budget? You'd overspend this mark quickly. The 12 jets alone would take up 31% of that budget.

Well we're not aiming to be half the Royal Navy's size in personnel. The Royal Navy currently has 34,000 regulars, Scotland upon independence would only have 2,000 regular personnel in its Navy. Are you confusing the 15,000 quoted which referred to the total personnel of the SDF?

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No tanks?

I cannot find any information on tanks just yet, I will seek that for you.

Quote
Would you seek to send your officers to the training centers in England or spend more money building your own in Scotland?

Both, I believe. In the interim period, provided that negotiations go well (as I am sure they will), we will send our officers to Sandhurst and so on while we develop our own training centres.

Quote
How on Earth would you persuade the Royal Navy to give up any of their ships?

I have answered this.

Quote
Would you attempt to 'share' out ships from the RFA?

Very good question.

Quote
Would you seek to get the same good r&d contracts with the Americans?

I believe so... I know the SNP were toying with the idea of concentrating defence research on how renewable energy could be used in that capacity.

Quote
Would an independent Scotland share any obligations in defending the overseas territories it currently contributes to the defence of?

I believe not, no, just as Ireland does not share any obligation in defending the Falklands.

Quote
How would you even begin to negotiate an 'inheritance' of materiel from the armed forces the southern side will cling onto?


I have answered this.

Quote
Would cutting the budget so drastically not force the defence contractors based in Scotland across the Atlantic and across the Channel?

Perhaps it would take a hit, yes, although it's necessary in the long run as our other issues that require the extra money that could be gained from slashing the budget come first.

Quote
What's to stop the southerners from taking everything that's not bolted down with them?

Rather a lot, as I have explained regarding negotiations.

Quote
Would there be a continued joint defence of Britain between north and south up to such an extent where intelligence was shared?

Yes, yes there would.

Quote
The logistics alone is mind boggling. It'd hardly help Scotland that the logistics arm is based in England either.

We would have to deal with that, yes. Although thankfully the current defence infrastructure in Scotland could be tailored to independence quite easily, meaning we won't have to worry too much about new bases and such. We will need to reopen a few closed bases here and there of course, and we will need to construct one or two new ones for the expanding air force.

Quote
Worse comes to worse you could just pull a Sweden and rely on your neighbours for defence.
I would do exactly this if I had the reigns.

Quote
And in case this sleuth of questions come across as rhetorical gibberish, I am sincerely curious how this would turn out. The way I see it, independence has the potential to hilariously cripple both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom's military forces. I'd be honoured to hear from a much more optimistic viewpoint.

I think that, though it wouldn't necessarily cripple the UK's military forces, it would prompt a great deal of reform and hopefully the British government would see the merit in having a genuine defence force, not just cutting down its old military that was better suited to globetrotting and intervening in wars like Iraq rather than being tailored to defend Britain.

Something tells me that the British military would probably be divided similarly as the Soviet Armed Forces got divided in 1991 - the army divisions stationed in Scotland would become a part of the Scottish Armed Forces, probably with the exception of nuclear weapons.

You are 100% correct, G.I. The Soviet model of divorce is what we will be seeing in the coming years if there is a Yes vote.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 07:00:45 pm by Owlbread »
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Max White

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3563 on: January 25, 2014, 07:00:53 pm »

I'm surprised the military wishlist is as extensive as it is. Were I forming my own declaration of independents, and were surrounded by somewhat friendly nations, I would be looking for as small a force as possible to keep maintenance costs down...

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3564 on: January 25, 2014, 07:04:28 pm »

I'm surprised the military wishlist is as extensive as it is. Were I forming my own declaration of independents, and were surrounded by somewhat friendly nations, I would be looking for as small a force as possible to keep maintenance costs down...

As was I, although when you get down to it this isn't all that extensive when compared with other nations of our size. It just seems that because you've got it all laid out in front of you.

I make the same arguments you've made there all the time though - I am actually in favour of a Costa Rican style system of defence where we just rely on Britain for defence and get rid of our armed forces altogether.
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Max White

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3565 on: January 25, 2014, 07:13:45 pm »

You don't even have to depend entirely on Britain for your defense. Let them keep the big, heavy toys, while through join defense training programs you maintain personal with the capacity to use the stuff, then borrow it when the need comes up. It is what we do with the USA, and they seem pretty happy with the deal as it means they don't need to worry as much about high tec training, and can focus on the grunts, while we have a small specialist force.

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3566 on: January 25, 2014, 07:26:51 pm »

We could downsize it enormously and still get away with it. I just think though we should spend that £2.5 billion on improving the sorry state of our hospitals, improving infrastructure, rebuilding our old railway links that were dismantled in the 1970s, maybe even considering some ideas like a completely free public transportation system.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 07:30:58 pm by Owlbread »
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Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3567 on: January 25, 2014, 08:04:02 pm »

I still think the key to a good economy is to funnel money to grease the wheels of small business as much as possible. Upgrading infrastructure, cheap (or free) public transportation (to get people to and from work easily), cheap (or free) tuition (to train people in the skills they need), cheap (or free) healthcare (so you can spend money on starting or sustaining a business instead of saving tens of thousands in case you get sick, nevermind any other savings you need), a basic income (to prevent people from needing to take a crappy job "just to get by", and to allow people some leeway in what they have to put up with. Being able to just walk away from a crappy job and not be destitute by next morning surely has to increase standards, if only so that the owner of said crappy business doesn't just run out of people willing to work there. Not to mention as a support system while you start up a business, and before it gets profitable, letting you focus all your energy on it)

Hopefully Scotland does at least some of those that they don't already have, and rubs it in other peoples face when they're booming in the next decades. If they go independent, of course.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 08:05:34 pm by Descan »
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Steeled

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3568 on: January 26, 2014, 03:23:47 am »

a basic income (to prevent people from needing to take a crappy job "just to get by", and to allow people some leeway in what they have to put up with. Being able to just walk away from a crappy job and not be destitute by next morning surely has to increase standards, if only so that the owner of said crappy business doesn't just run out of people willing to work there. Not to mention as a support system while you start up a business, and before it gets profitable, letting you focus all your energy on it)
Are you suggesting that Scotland should give all scots an allowance? Giving them at least the equivalent of a minimum wage job to live off of? Or am I terribly misreading you?
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3569 on: January 26, 2014, 03:40:36 am »

Quote
I read a while ago that Scotland wouldn't be able to avoid taking the Euro if they joined the EU. I haven't heard anything to the contrary since either.

FAKEDIT:
Found an article about it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10418890/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-accept-the-EU-template.html

Here is a response from November 2011 regarding this particular story:

Quote from: Wings over Scotland, pro-independence blogger
The debate about whether an independent Scotland which joined or remained in the EU would be forced to adopt the Euro – and therefore be liable for a multi-billion-pound contribution to the eurozone bailout fund, the subject of much Unionist scaremongering in recent days – would appear to have reached a definitive end. A letter in today's Scotsman from Drew Scott, Professor of European Union Studies at the University of Edinburgh, backs up a blog on Thursday from SNP activist and EU law graduate Stephen Noon by noting that regardless of current rules which say new members must join the currency, the EU also stipulates that no member can do so without first being a member of the Exchange Rate Mechanism for two years.

ERM participation, however, is not compulsory for new members. And therefore any country joining the EU – whether as a successor state or from scratch – which doesn't want to join the Euro can simply elect to remain outwith the ERM, and therefore put off joining the Euro indefinitely. Noon points to the specific chapter and verse in EU regulations, and Professor Scott backs his conclusion. Scotland CAN join the EU but stay out of the Euro. The argument would seem to be over.

I hope this answers your question.

Ah, the good old ERM system. However, the problem is that at that point you're legally bound to take on the Euro at some point in the future. The decision whether you adopt it or not would no longer lie with Scotland, but with the EU. The moment they decide to remove this (intentional) loophole, you will be forced to adopt the Euro. Not going to happen soon, as the ECB is pretty adamant about people following the rules.

Quote
Quote
Also the Scottish economy will be quite small.  You don't have the population to compete in GDP per country

In Scotland we talk about the three great Unionist arguments - "too wee, too poor, too stupid". You've already used the too stupid bit when you talked about us not knowing how to train our soldiers, but you've managed to use both too wee and too poor at the same time.

The SNP state the following:

Quote from: SNP
An independent Scotland would be one of the top ten richest countries in the OECD - ranking eighth amonst the 34 member countries in terms of GDP per person, compared to the UK which would rank 17th.
You're confusing GDP per capita with GDP total. While Scotland might be a rich country in GDP per capita, (Oil playing no small part in it, so if you loose that, you're kind-off screwed.) your actual population numbers are kind-off low (5-6 million, like half the population of Belgium). GDP per capita is not a good measure to determine whether you can afford absolute expenses, like aircraft carriers.

I mean depending on the list you use, the richest countries are either Liechtenstein, Luxembourg or Qatar. And somehow I don't see those operating an aircraft carrier.


a basic income (to prevent people from needing to take a crappy job "just to get by", and to allow people some leeway in what they have to put up with. Being able to just walk away from a crappy job and not be destitute by next morning surely has to increase standards, if only so that the owner of said crappy business doesn't just run out of people willing to work there. Not to mention as a support system while you start up a business, and before it gets profitable, letting you focus all your energy on it)
Are you suggesting that Scotland should give all scots an allowance? Giving them at least the equivalent of a minimum wage job to live off of? Or am I terribly misreading you?
I think he is.
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