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[Mictlantecuhtli]

Eurobarometer is rather interesting

This must be like a horror novel for some. Especially American Republicans. 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So why are you so upset that Putin is detaining those 700 hundreds?

Because there's no actual reason to believe that most of these people were at all involved, and given the state of the Russian judiciary that won't really help them?

I'm guessing MSH is pissed off because Putin did it.

You know me, just your average unreasonable American democracy-lover.

[LordSlowpoke]

You know me, just your average unreasonable American democracy-lover.

American

unreasonable democracy-lover.

i know that's what you were going for

but these are synonyms

(`・ω・´)

enjoy your establishment-induced political apathy i guess, i sure am enjoying mine

[Owlbread]

Alistair Darling, leader of the Better Together campaign (the campaign against Scottish independence), starts off the new year with a change by laying out the positive case for remaining within the United Kingdom. It is plainly obvious that he seeks to dispel rumours that workers within Better Together have referred to their organisation as "Project Fear" and are too focussed on scaremongering and trying to spread fear and uncertainty.

In less sarcastic, perhaps lighter news, another regional council leader from the past has come out in favour of Scottish independence despite being a former leading member of the Scottish Labour Party. John Mulvey, ex-leader of Lothian Regional Council, has effectively joined the Yes Campaign alongside Strathclyde Regional Council leader Charles Gray and former Lord Provost of Glasgow Alex Mosson.

To put this in perspective the "regional councils" in the 1980s were the closest thing Scotland had to autonomous governance in those days - almost the progenitors to our modern parliament. These guys, i.e. the council leaders, were the closest things we had to national leaders. "Lothian" was also enormous at this time, basically the whole of the southeast and including the capital city of Edinburgh. Strathclyde was even bigger and held 2.5 million people within its borders, which is a lot considering we've only got a population of 5 million. These guys are heavyweights, make no mistake. Old Mulvey was also Alistair Darling's boss back when he was just a young regional councillor, allegedly something he never fails to mention whenever they meet.

Here's what Mulvey had to say:

“A lot of people out there – former and current Labour supporters – are relatively happy with the Scottish Parliament and see that it can be even better than it currently is if it represented an independent country."

"I don’t see it as me personally benefitting from independence at my age but I honestly believe it is for my grandchildren,” he added.

“It is an opportunity for them to live in a more egalitarian country that will have done away with nuclear weapons and living in a more green-related approach to the economy."

“First and foremost, this is a hugely important vote for the status of Scotland."

“There are those who don’t support the SNP or, perhaps, don’t like Alex Salmond. But it’s more important than that. People of all political persuasions should come out and vote – preferably for Yes – and then decide what kind of Scotland they want to see in the election of 2016 when the political parties make their cases to be the first elected government of the newly independent nation."

Spoiler: The fellow himself. (click to show/hide)

Would anyone like to hear what Labour had to say about it?

“Rather than press releasing the views of a former local councillor, perhaps the SNP-led separation campaign should be more focused on trying to convince SNP voters who steadfastly refuse to back their plans to break up Britain,”

Let that soak in. SEPARATION CAMPAIGN! PLANS TO BREAK UP BRITAIN! SNP-LED! STEADFASTLY REFUSE!

What a positive debate. I love the way they completely dismiss him as a "former local councillor" when Labour base the entire notion of them ever making a serious comeback in Scotland on their performance in council elections.

[XXSockXX]

Well, this being the year of the vote, I expect the debate will only become louder and uglier. And the more it looks like one side might lose, the worse it will get, probably with very irrational political accusations and maybe even a few sex or corruption scandals thrown in. It's a high stakes thing after all.

[Owlbread]

Well, this being the year of the vote, I expect the debate will only become louder and uglier. And the more it looks like one side might lose, the worse it will get, probably with very irrational political accusations and maybe even a few sex or corruption scandals thrown in. It's a high stakes thing after all.

The Unionists are already trying to portray an independent Scotland as being similar to North Korea.

Allegedly, we'll be led by a dictatorial, authoritarian figure who eschews the democratic process and works at odds with the desires of the people. We'll have border guards and we'll be isolated from NATO, the UK, the USA, Europe and basically the world because everyone will block us from international organisations. We'll be plunged into poverty by the lack of effective economic policy at the hands of our SNP masters and we'll eventually become a backward, third-world banana republic. We'll be cut off from all our friends and family because they'll all be foreigners. We won't be able to watch British TV (no access to the BBC) and we'll even have difficulty with our mobile phones because of increased roaming charges.

[XXSockXX]

You'll make a terrible banana republic. You don't even have bananas. Just whiskey and haggis. 

But yeah, that is pretty irrational already. Maybe so irrational even that people don't believe it. Even if independence should turn out to be disadvantageous in the long run, it clearly won't be that bad.

[Guardian G.I.]

Well, this being the year of the vote, I expect the debate will only become louder and uglier. And the more it looks like one side might lose, the worse it will get, probably with very irrational political accusations and maybe even a few sex or corruption scandals thrown in. It's a high stakes thing after all.

The Unionists are already trying to portray an independent Scotland as being similar to North Korea.

Allegedly, we'll be led by a dictatorial, authoritarian figure who eschews the democratic process and works at odds with the desires of the people. We'll have border guards and we'll be isolated from NATO, the UK, the USA, Europe and basically the world because everyone will block us from international organisations. We'll be plunged into poverty by the lack of effective economic policy at the hands of our SNP masters and we'll eventually become a backward, third-world banana republic. We'll be cut off from all our friends and family because they'll all be foreigners. We won't be able to watch British TV (no access to the BBC) and we'll even have difficulty with our mobile phones because of increased roaming charges.

In other words, you'll become a post-Soviet nation! 

[Owlbread]

That's exactly it, Guardian. But I take comfort in the fact that, as Sock says, people just won't believe stuff like that. They'll get turned off by it because it's crazy.

[XXSockXX]

Too crazy, yes. Stuff like this will turn a lot of people off, even in an emotional debate with conflicing national sentiments. The poll is still 9 months away, that means the debate isn't even at the top of the heat, but that stuff sounds like they already lost. Which seems a bit weird, since you could make perfectly reasonable arguments against independence (not taking sides here, just saying).

[Owlbread]

Too crazy, yes. Stuff like this will turn a lot of people off, even in an emotional debate with conflicing national sentiments. The poll is still 9 months away, that means the debate isn't even at the top of the heat, but that stuff sounds like they already lost. Which seems a bit weird, since you could make perfectly reasonable arguments against independence (not taking sides here, just saying).

One of the things that is working in our favour the most at the moment is the astonishing level of incompetence within Better Together. They are really, really bad, but perhaps what you're seeing is the appalling standard of British politics at the moment. These Better Together types are all very closely related to the Westminster establishment, many of them sitting MPs.

Despite the arguments being honestly as bad as that in many cases, besides the same old mantra of uncertainty i.e. "currency, EU membership, defence", we're still 9 points behind in the polls right now. That just goes to show how entrenched Unionism was in Scotland until recently but it is now softening by the month. That's because our side is the one that's coming up with all the bright, shiny ideas, all the No Campaign can do is bleat about uncertainty and fear. That gets boring.

[XXSockXX]

Well, part of it could be that the UK itself doesn't seem to be so sure where it's going, with the EU-membership questioned and the general state of the economy in Europe. This might very well work in your favour, since it's not the Unionists who have some sort of positive vision for the future.

[Andrew425]

Just be careful in counting your support. Many people who will agree with you are going to change their minds in the voting booth when reality dawns on them.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We won't be able to watch British TV (no access to the BBC)

Well that's just plain silly. The BBC is omnipresent. Even here in Glorious Freedom Land we have BBC, and we broke away from London by force! Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the BBC tried to set up shop on other planets once colonization starts.

[Owlbread]

Just be careful in counting your support. Many people who will agree with you are going to change their minds in the voting booth when reality dawns on them.

I've got that in my head all the time, it never leaves. The thing is though I'm actually relying on that working against the No Campaign - given that we are a politically apathetic country, I know it takes a lot to actually get out and vote against something like independence. I mean, given that it's not some kind of indeterminate, fankled mess like the Alternative Voting system suggested by the Lib Dems a few years ago. I always get the feeling that the people who are actually standing in a booth are more likely to just... give it a try. Those who were so vehemently against it probably didn't even bother getting out to vote.

The number of Scots who are ardent Unionists is actually quite small. Rather, the far larger number is people who say "naw, ah'm no sure aboot it mate, ah jist think we cannae dae it. And whit aboot ma pension?" and so on but they probably won't get out and vote. Those are the kinds of people Better Together are appealing to by spreading the fear and scare stories - when you scare someone out of voting Yes, you aren't necessarily scaring them into voting No.

Last time Unionists in Scotland tried the same tactics was in 1979 when we voted on a devolved parliament. We actually had a majority Yes vote, just not big enough though because Westminster introduced the restriction that we had to get 40% of the electorate to vote in our favour or something. This time we don't have any restrictions. Even if it's a majority of just 1% it doesn't matter how many members of the electorate bothered to vote.