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[Ukrainian Ranger]

Circassians, like Crimean Tatars, were not innocent people that were persecuted by Russians for no reason. They used to go on raids into Russian territory, pillage settlements, kidnap people and sell them to slavers from the Ottoman Empire. I doubt that any European ruler or American president from those times would react kindly and democratically to such a threat to his country's border areas.

I love how Russians are absolutely sure that killing\expelling civilians is not bad at all if they had some kind of war before that

I heard the very same logic about deportation of Crimean Tatars and Chechens during the WW2, when entire nations were loaded in cattle wagons and unloaded in Kazakhstan. People from mountainous regions to steppe without any infrastructure. Children, elders, women with few adult men (most adult men were drafted\executed). Perfectly fine by Russian morals

To show how 'brilliant' that kind of logic can get:
Leader of Ukrainian communists publicly said something like that "Stalin saved Crimean Tatars by moving them out of Crimea, because else this damned traitors  would experience a justified revenge from the local population"
Yep, politicans in my country can talk in that way and have their party getting 10% on elections. And they call my party fascists....
_______________________

On Ukrainian news, protests calmed down a little, strikes never picked up (hard to do that in a country that has almost no independent trade unions) , but as I have seen with my own eyes. Maidan is alive, fortified, determined and ready to defend itself.  I am little worried that passion is declining somewhat.... On other hand if our opposition didn't calm the crowds down it would be all much more bloody

[Owlbread]

Circassians, like Crimean Tatars, were not innocent people that were persecuted by Russians for no reason. They used to go on raids into Russian territory, pillage settlements, kidnap people and sell them to slavers from the Ottoman Empire. I doubt that any European ruler or American president from those times would react kindly and democratically to such a threat to his country's border areas.

And that perfectly justifies ethnic cleansing and genocide, doesn't it?

And I have never claimed that they were innocent people. I know what the Circassians, Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Nogai and all North Caucasians did in those days, just as we Scots did long ago.

I guess if you use the article referencing the 19th century, we might as well remember the conquistadors. But we don't call Spain the genocidal state now, don't we?

I don't call Russia "the genocidal state", and there is a great difference between 1570 and 1870. Modern Russian civilians are not responsible for what happened 200 years ago. I just abhorr attempts to airbrush history and there is something truly horrible about holding the Winter Olympics in the capital of a conquered, devastated nation. The genocide is barely outwith living memory.

Also Circassians have suffered terribly into the 1940s and beyond as Ukrainian Ranger says, the 19th century was just the beginning. They came back from the exile to Central Asia to find Russians had taken their homes and refused to give them back, telling them they didn't belong there.

I love how Russians are absolutely sure that killing\expelling civilians is not bad at all if they had some kind of war before that

I heard the very same logic about deportation of Crimean Tatars and Chechens during the WW2, when entire nations were loaded in cattle wagons and unloaded in Kazakhstan. People from mountainous regions to steppe without any infrastructure. Children, elders, women with few adult men (most adult men were drafted\executed). Perfectly fine by Russian morals

This. All of this I agree with, it is truly abominable stuff. I recommend anyone read an excellent book called "Let Their Fame Be Great" by the British journalist Oliver Bullough to understand the darkness of that time, from the 19th century to Stalin's deportations to the 1990s.

Those arguments are also used to justify the invasion, occupation and pacification of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria in 1999, along with the imposition of over a decade of totalitarian, Russian-imposed Islamist rule that lasts to this day.

To show how 'brilliant' that kind of logic can get:
Leader of Ukrainian communists publicly said something like that "Stalin saved Crimean Tatars by moving them out of Crimea, because else this damned traitors  would experience a justified revenge from the local population"
Yep, politicans in my country can talk in that way and have their party getting 10% on elections. And they call my party fascists....

It really is disgusting stuff.

On Ukrainian news, protests calmed down a little, strikes never picked up (hard to do that in a country that has almost no independent trade unions) , but as I have seen with my own eyes. Maidan is alive, fortified, determined and ready to defend itself.  I am little worried that passion is declining somewhat.... On other hand if our opposition didn't calm the crowds down it would be all much more bloody

How is the population responding to Yanukovych's talk of concessions?

[t. fortsorter]

Oh my~
Genocide, mass expulsions~ What a truly delightful topic to be continuously discussing.
If you must however, allow me to interject! for I believe the most important thing that should be held against the people who have participated in genocide, other than the fact they have done so itself, is not finishing the job.
Surely, you should not do so under any circumstances. Have you however heard the cries of a people who have not been seen walking the Earth for a thousand years? I personally am unable to claim that I have, haha~
Therefore, while the time to actually do so has already passed (and how long ago, in fact!) we should be berating the leadership of Russia during the relevant time period for attempting to cheat their way out of genociding nations properly! Imagine the pains the surviving people must be feeling! Truly inexcusable.

[Owlbread]

Oh my~
Genocide, mass expulsions~ What a truly delightful topic to be continuously discussing.
If you must however, allow me to interject! for I believe the most important thing that should be held against the people who have participated in genocide, other than the fact they have done so itself, is not finishing the job.
Surely, you should not do so under any circumstances. Have you however heard the cries of a people who have not been seen walking the Earth for a thousand years? I personally am unable to claim that I have, haha~
Therefore, while the time to actually do so has already passed (and how long ago, in fact!) we should be berating the leadership of Russia during the relevant time period for attempting to cheat their way out of genociding nations properly! Imagine the pains the surviving people must be feeling! Truly inexcusable.

Perhaps though it is very difficult to truly eradicate entire nations and peoples, there's usually a fire inside human beings that is very difficult to extinguish outright. It's even harder now that everything is in the global eye and nothing remains within a country's borders for long, but genocide is a very difficult task that requires a lot of effort. It begs the question - is it really worth it?

[Descan]

But they look funny! And talk funny, dress weird, and don't believe in the same things I do!

Therefore they should die. QED.

[Owlbread]

But they look funny! And talk funny, dress weird, and don't believe in the same things I do!

Therefore they should die. QED.

Then it begins, years of resistance, violence and bad blood. Countries lose their innocence and bloody their hands that way, Russia certainly did in the last 200 years. Harmony between nations and peoples is the only way forward and always has been.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

How is the population responding to Yanukovych's talk of concessions?

What concessions do you mean? 

Russia certainly did in the last 200 years.

I'd say 450, starting right from Ivan The Terrible

Harmony between nations and peoples is the only way forward and always has been.

Yep, National Egoism can't lead to anything good.

[misko27]

Owlbread, that fire stuff sounds enormously sappy, and since sap doesn't burn, there is clearly a problem. But Genocide (really guys, really?) isn't the most appropriate of topics.

But they look funny! And talk funny, dress weird, and don't believe in the same things I do!

Therefore they should die. QED.

Then it begins, years of resistance, violence and bad blood. Countries lose their innocence and bloody their hands that way, Russia certainly did in the last 200 years. Harmony between nations and peoples is the only way forward and always has been.

This, I really don't know how to respond. I think idealist is a close word though, though it misses something.

Ranger, it's good to hear the crowds haven't abated. I wonder if popular rage will last to the elections, if the protests fail to unseat the government.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Ranger, it's good to hear the crowds haven't abated. I wonder if popular rage will last to the elections, if the protests fail to unseat the government.

Rage will not just disappear, especially when it will become public what exactly Yanukocich sold to Russia for the credit and gas price reduction. Besides economic situation can only get worse, so even people who don't care about stuff like dignity, rights or freedom will become more and more mad
Besides, I am sure that our government will make more idiotic steps not allowing protests to die out

Anyway, elections will lead to new unrest because few doubt it will be an imitation of elections. How do you think when the government reduces social part of the budget but increases funding for police in the year preceding elections, what their plan is? Also, starting from the next fall we'll have no conscript army. IMO, part of the plan. It's way harder to control army of conscripts than professional army when you control recruiting

Yanukocich knows that his chances to win fair elections are veeeery slim. And he knows that he will not only lose his power. He will go directly to the jail.  Because:
a) He opened that can of worms by creating Tymoshenko's precedent
b) Millions want that and any new government will get new protests (or worse) if they fail to put him in a jail  together with many more corrupt politicians and judges.
c) He and his family have stolen too much, even by standards of Ukrainian corrupt politics

[Owlbread]

Owlbread, that fire stuff sounds enormously sappy, and since sap doesn't burn, there is clearly a problem. But Genocide (really guys, really?) isn't the most appropriate of topics.

I know it's sappy and romantic and all the rest of it, but damnit if we can't be sappy and romantic every now and then geopolitics can be awfully dry. It's fun to wax lyrical every now and then. But if we don't talk about genocide, who will?

Rage will not just disappear, especially when it will become public what exactly Yanukocich sold to Russia for the credit and gas price reduction. Besides economic situation can only get worse, so even people who don't care about stuff like dignity, rights or freedom will become more and more mad
Besides, I am sure that our government will make more idiotic steps not allowing protests to die out

Anyway, elections will lead to new unrest because few doubt it will be an imitation of elections. How do you think when the government reduces social part of the budget but increases funding for police in the year preceding elections, what their plan is? Also, starting from the next fall we'll have no conscript army. IMO, part of the plan. It's way harder to control army of conscripts than professional army when you control recruiting

Yanukocich knows that his chances to win fair elections are veeeery slim. And he knows that he will not only lose his power. He will go directly to the jail.  Because:
a) He opened that can of worms by creating Tymoshenko's precedent
b) Millions want that and any new government will get new protests (or worse) if they fail to put him in a jail  together with many more corrupt politicians and judges.
c) He and his family have stolen too much, even by standards of Ukrainian corrupt politics

So you think Yanukovich is living on borrowed time as President? Who could you see taking over in the next few years in his place?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

So you think Yanukovich is living on borrowed time as President? Who could you see taking over in the next few years in his place?

Ask something easier. I am careful to make predictions on Ukrainian politics cause I was wrong way too often

Still I am rather sure that there are little to no chances for Yanukovich to stay in power via any democratic way.
Even if he somehow to win elections in a way that Western and Central Ukraine will accept that as a fair victory stability will not come. For example quite possible result that Western and, to lesser extent, Central Ukraine will say- "Hey, Eastern Guys, we don't want to endure THAT for five more years, so, can you, please, GTFO, and live with the president you elected in a state separate from us? " and then all the fun of country breaking up with unpredictable effects. Separatism notions like that are getting more and more popular.

As for the most likely next president should we have real elections- it's Klichko, he is just the most compromise variant between Western and Eastern parts. But in such turbulent times new leaders can appear from nowhere.

[XXSockXX]

Yeah, looks like the EU is betting on Klitschko too. Seems logical, he has ties to the West and his party is moderate enough.

That pardon for Khodorkovsky was apparently brokered by former German foreign minister Genscher, though it's not clear what, if anything, Putin got in return. My guess too is that it's got to do with the Olympics, no western Heads of State showing up will be bad PR.

[Max White]

So an article that presents an interesting, if slightly dangerous idea.
It presents a problem that has become systemic of the US and Australia, I'm just wondering do people feel that this 'political vetocracy' is also as strong across Europe. Any opinion?

[Helgoland]

It's a peculiar case in Germany: Our government is very much functional when it comes to important stuff that Merkel handles herself, but all the domestic issues were hardly addressed during the last coalition. That might change now, but I wouldn't count on it: The last coalition was destroyed by bickering, and they were dream partners; this one is an uneasy marriage between unequal partners who both have some ego problems, and there's plenty to bicker about.

[10ebbor10]

So an article that presents an interesting, if slightly dangerous idea.
It presents a problem that has become systemic of the US and Australia, I'm just wondering do people feel that this 'political vetocracy' is also as strong across Europe. Any opinion?

Well, Belgium is practically build on this principle, so...