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[burningpet]

i was a whole 2 years in gaza. there is power in gaza, ironically, even in their tunnels. i personally defended electricity engineers that had to enter the strip to fix power lines.

http://www.gisha.org/map-item.asp?lang_id=en&p_id=886

[Nadaka]

...
Nadaka - nope. please, either read again, or fix your logic. its not sound.
...

Ok. I reread it again. You literally contradicted your self.

In the first case,ethnically cleansing the Palestinians is justified because it would result in lost taxes.
In the second case, ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by protecting the illegal Israeli settlers is costing you taxes.

My logic is not flawed.

[burningpet]

"There is no justification for the Israeli settlers being permitted to build houses in the occupied territories, or for the Israeli government to use the threat of more houses being built as a bargaining chip with the USA."

To which i replied:

"I agree and most of the israelis also agree with that. we just don't see any reason to drain our tax money over them (israeli settlers) nor when serving the army, patrol their settlements in the middle of the night to keep them safe only for them to spit on us and call us judo-naziz when they see us in the day (the israeli settlers does that), but that still doesn't mean israel conduct in a large scale ethnic cleansing."

To which, Descan replied:
"That seems very paternalistic, like they can't take care of themselves so you're being oh so self-sacrificing for them, the selfish bastards."

To which, i replied:
"what? you think the settlers could survive less than a day without my tax money or military protection?!"

Cant see any logical contradiction.

[Nadaka]

If that was what you meant, your post was not very clear.

In that case I have no idea why you are still insisting that Israel isn't ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, despite your apparent disapproval of it.

[Descan]

Okay, I thought you were talking about patrolling Palestinian homes and streets, in some kind of paternalistic colonial "We're making their lives better! And they hate us for it!" bullshit.

But yeah, colonizing is pretty much ethnic cleansing, even if you aren't pushing the natives out. Which I'm pretty sure the Israelis are doing to Palestinians.

[Scoops Novel]

i was a whole 2 years in gaza. there is power in gaza, ironically, even in their tunnels. i personally defended electricity engineers that had to enter the strip to fix power lines.

http://www.gisha.org/map-item.asp?lang_id=en&p_id=886

I'd like to hear more from you about (Edit) your experiences what you have to say about all this, though i understand you have limits.

[Helgoland]

But yeah, colonizing is pretty much ethnic cleansing, even if you aren't pushing the natives out.

Some dead jews would like a word with you, Descan. They apparently dislike terminological inaccuracies.

[LordSlowpoke]

But yeah, colonizing is pretty much ethnic cleansing, even if you aren't pushing the natives out.

Some dead jews would like a word with you, Descan. They apparently dislike terminological inaccuracies.

I'm fairly sure they planned to resettle the areas the dead jews were removed from but the end of the war stopped them in most cases.

[Descan]

But yeah, colonizing is pretty much ethnic cleansing, even if you aren't pushing the natives out.

Some dead jews would like a word with you, Descan. They apparently dislike terminological inaccuracies.

I didn't say ethnic cleansing was only colonizing, only that colonizing was a form of ethnic cleansing.

But yeah, pretty sure the Germans were planning on colonizing the "vacated" areas.

[Helgoland]

But yeah, colonizing is pretty much ethnic cleansing, even if you aren't pushing the natives out.

Some dead jews would like a word with you, Descan. They apparently dislike terminological inaccuracies.

I didn't say ethnic cleansing was only colonizing, only that colonizing was a form of ethnic cleansing.

But yeah, pretty sure the Germans were planning on colonizing the "vacated" areas.

Mz point still stands: Ethnic cleansing, like in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Rwanda and too many other places, is a kind of atrocity that cannot even remotely be compared to colonization. Just look at the expression: Cleansing implies there's nobody left afterwards. Colonialism usually likes to have some natives to exploit.

[Descan]

Tell that to the Native Americans. >____>

[Sheb]

Helgoland, you seems to confond ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[Helgoland]

They very often overlap: You could argue that genocide is a means of conducting an ethnic cleansing. Other means are less than pleasant as well.
My point is that colonization does not imply ethnic cleansing: You can colonize without removing the natives. You can of course colonize with removing the natives as well, but that's a much more rare occurence.
Examples for colonization without cleansing: India, South-East Asia, China, most of Africa with South Africa being a special case and there being exceptions like the Herero genocide, and (an interesting one) Siberia as Russia's equivalent to a colonial empire.

[Sheb]

Sure. But many of those colonies were not "settlement colonies", like the US or Australia where a significant European population took place. We're not pretending the Israeli control of most of the West Bank itself is an act of ethnic cleansing. The use of land policy, expropriation, checkpoints and destruction of resources (including olive orchards) to replace the Arab population by Jewish settlers is definitely ethnic cleansing.

Burningpet, while I know that large part of the Israeli public opinion doesn't support the settlers, it is a fact that support for the settlements is a policy of the Israeli government.

[Helgoland]

Okay, let's agree on "ethnic cleansing occuring in the process of colonisation".
I'd still rather use a term like displacement - or something else that doesn't sound like heaps of dead bodies...

Slight change of topic: Who else thinks a one-state solution is more realistic and would work better than the two-state one?