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[Loud Whispers]

I think that's what already happened. Did you notice how the first McDonalds' and Burger Kings started to open up in the UK around the time we discovered oil?

True. Or it might have been a response to counter fried mars bars, to ensure minimal saturation of un-American unsaturated fats.

[Owlbread]

Franky, I'm surprised you haven't already made a 1000-page long Glorious Scottish Freedom Thread.

It's because I'm scared of how long it will take me to put it all together. Hopefully the interview will be sufficient for the timebeing however.

True. Or it might have been a response to counter fried mars bars, to ensure minimal saturation of un-American unsaturated fats.

Actually we only invented that delicious meal in 1995. It is quite new to us. Once upon a time, we had very healthy diets of milk and salmon and porridge and stuff, lots of iron too. We got quite a lot of nutrients. Unfortunately as we became less agriculturally-focussed and more industrialised we turned to the demon pies, as opposed to just the demon drink. Steak pie in a bread roll, Scottish delicacy for decades.

[Max White]

So... What are the arguments for and against Scottish independents?
I mean as an Australian living in a constitutional monarchy under the British crown, I certainly see the upside to independents, and personally wish we would go republic ourselves, but I'm just wondering if there are any points made specifically for the mighty Skotland? Beyond the standard not wanting to be ruled by pretentious asshats who are appointed by having the least genetic diversity in the commonwealth.

[kingfisher1112]

I seriously don't understand why. Like, are there any other reasons then " Yeah! Scotland! Woo!"? It'll remove quite a bit of economic stability to the UK, among other things.

[MonkeyHead]

I seriously don't understand why. Like, are there any other reasons then " Yeah! Scotland! Woo!"? It'll remove quite a bit of economic stability to the UK, among other things.

Explain please...

[Owlbread]

So... What are the arguments for and against Scottish independents?
I mean as an Australian living in a constitutional monarchy under the British crown, I certainly see the upside to independents, and personally wish we would go republic ourselves, but I'm just wondering if there are any points made specifically for the mighty Skotland? Beyond the standard not wanting to be ruled by pretentious asshats who are appointed by having the least genetic diversity in the commonwealth.

Spoiler: *Takes deep breath* (click to show/hide)

Interestingly our current leadership advocates independence but sharing the same monarchy, like we did for 100 years before we formed the Union. The entire Union was created when a Scottish king became king of both England and Scotland and realised he liked England better, then his descendents (who were English) tried to consolidate their grip and eventually pushed for a single state.

You see, most of our arguments for independence are based around economic reasons but also cultural and political. Scotland, as things stand, does not elect its own "national government". We do have our own devolved government but they do not have control over essential things like the bulk of our natural resources, our foreign affairs (so we're constantly dragged into wars) and so on and so forth. The reason why the leadership is saying that we shall retain the Monarchy is to make the transition from British province to independent state as smooth as possible, and there's still a lot of Scots who do actually like the Monarchy, or would be fearful of the radical constitutional reform that would come with Republicanism.

There's also a good reason nobody really talks about; the current leader of the SNP (the governing party in Scotland), Alex Salmond, is a charismatic leader that the Unionist, Westminster-based parties (Labour, the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats) fear. A lot hinges on his success. They have thus been targeting him as much as they can for the last year or so, trying to convince people he's a "dodgy used car salesman", a "fat Nazi dictator" and various things like that. Trying to get the message across that he's power-focussed and dictatorial. Anas Sarwar, the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour Party (Labour's faction here) stood up in Westminster and told them that our devolved Parliament is "Not a democracy, but a dictatorship under one man". What a way to see a democratically elected government with a well-won majority? Labour are never very happy not being in government, they used to treat Scotland like their own little fiefdom before the SNP beat them in an election a few years ago. Anyway, if Alex Salmond started advocating Republicanism, people could easily start saying "Oh he just wants to become the first President of Scotland!" and then all hell would break loose because, sadly, many Scots do actually read politically-biased tabloids.

Personally, I am an advocate of a Republic (as are most of the leadership I suspect, secretly, based on their past sympathies) and I am certain that given a few years of independence we will quickly approach a referendum on it which will be a resounding victory for the Republican camp, I am sure. Once people get used to radical reform, that is. Hence, Republicanism is a good reason for voting Yes, even if the SNP advocate a Monarchy. As things stand, there is virtually no chance of pushing a Republic through Westminster because of the overwhelming Monarchism in England, but with independence there is a very good chance.

I would recommend watching at least parts of this interview to get a taste of some of the arguments. It's a bit long but skip anything you find boring.

[kingfisher1112]

I seriously don't understand why. Like, are there any other reasons then " Yeah! Scotland! Woo!"? It'll remove quite a bit of economic stability to the UK, among other things.

Explain please...

I don't see what needs explaining. I don't see any reason why a unified country which has been unified for a long time suddenly wants to split off.

[Owlbread]

I don't see what needs explaining. I don't see any reason why a unified country which has been unified for a long time suddenly wants to split off.

We've only been unified for 300 years. Scotland was independent for nearly 1000 years.

[MonkeyHead]

It has been unified around 300 years. The UK was a number independant nations for far longer than unified. It only really suits England, as they get to De Facto rule the unification. The rest of us would like our national identities back.

[Owlbread]

It has been unified around 300 years. The UK was a number independant nations for far longer than unified. It only really suits England, as they get to De Facto rule the unification. The rest of us would like our national identities back.

I think it could only strengthen our relations too if we didn't have to squabble over control over our own resources/legislative powers.

[Max White]

Interestingly our current leadership advocates independence but sharing the same monarchy, like we did for 100 years before we formed the Union. The entire Union was created when a Scottish king became king of both England and Scotland and realised he liked England better, then his descendents (who were English) tried to consolidate their grip and eventually pushed for a single state.

You see, most of our arguments for independence are based around economic reasons but also cultural and political. Scotland, as things stand, does not elect its own "national government". We do have our own devolved government but they do not have control over essential things like the bulk of our natural resources, our foreign affairs (so we're constantly dragged into wars) and so on and so forth. The reason why the leadership is saying that we shall retain the Monarchy is to make the transition from British province to independent state as smooth as possible, and there's still a lot of Scots who do actually like the Monarchy, or would be fearful of the radical constitutional reform that would come with Republicanism.

Personally, I am an advocate of a Republic (as are most of the leadership I suspect, secretly, based on their past sympathies) and I am certain that given a few years of independence we will quickly approach a referendum on it which will be a resounding victory for the Republican camp, I am sure. Once people get used to radical reform, that is. Hence, Republicanism is a good reason for voting Yes, even if the SNP (the governing party here) advocate a Monarchy. As things stand, there is virtually no chance of pushing a Republic through Westminster because of the overwhelming Monarchism in England, but with independence there is a very good chance.

I would recommend watching at least parts of this interview to get a taste of some of the arguments. It's a bit long but skip anything you find boring.

So you guys don't actually have any level of sovereignty? That is pretty shitty. I mean sure we aren't technically the land of freedom over here, but we sure get to act like it. At least when we get dragged into wars it is because of treaties with the US we made ourselves, rather than old blood. I'm a little surprised this is only starting to come up now, really.Well good luck, if your reforms require the same double majority that ours do, you will need it.

Ah European politics, being a republican has never been so rational.

[Owlbread]

We don't, which is something some people don't realise. Our "government" (basically a provincial government with some bells and whistles stuck on with sellotape) has very limited control and there is no chance of us gaining control of the stuff that really matters to us at the present moment, like foreign relations and representation.

It has come up a few times in the last 300 years (including at least one attempt at insurrection), it's always been there under the surface, but once upon a time Scotland was like one big factory for the UK. One big powerhouse. Coal, steel, ships, once upon a time a quarter of all ships in the world were built on the river Clyde that runs through Glasgow. Those days are long gone, and after a century of decline then discovery of oil we have started to make some realisations. Scotland has only had a devolved government since 1999 anyway, and since then we haven't had an SNP majority until 2011. It was always Labour, and back then they preferred to call our government the "Scottish Executive". Fiefdom.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So, how are the DevoMax advocates doing, and am I right in that I get the impression that you find them to be extremely annoying lame ducks?

[Owlbread]

So, how are the DevoMax advocates doing, and am I right in that I get the impression that you find them to be extremely annoying lame ducks?

No, I was a DevoMax advocate until I realised it just wasn't happening. Ever, really. The UK government and the various parties down South stamped it out before it burned the hems of their ermine robes. As part of the agreement that would allow the Scottish devolved government to hold a referendum on independence, we had to give up the idea of a second question that would determine whether DevoMax (full fiscal autonomy) would be sought if independence was rejected. The response they gave to the very idea of DevoMax was overwhelmingly negative and implies that if we did actually want to push for something like that it would just never happen.

[kingfisher1112]

It has been unified around 300 years. The UK was a number independant nations for far longer than unified. It only really suits England, as they get to De Facto rule the unification. The rest of us would like our national identities back.

But doesn't it suit you too? Y'know, the established international authority, diplomacy, and economic strength? Does your nationalism trounce all the other benefits?

We don't, which is something some people don't realise. Our "government" (basically a provincial government with some bells and whistles stuck on with sellotape) has very limited control and there is no chance of us gaining control of the stuff that really matters to us at the present moment, like foreign relations and representation.

I always understood it as you didn't even have a council or anything, it was all handled by national government.