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[TD1]

Okay. And if all that does not help them and they hit rock bottom, what are they going to improve to help them as they did last time? They can't exactly make them literate again.

[Sergarr]

Thankfully, we're not at rock bottom. We still have some industry left, we have literate population, we have medicine, we have universities.

Compared to 1920s, we have a giant head start. So it will be easier this time. 15 years of directed effort, maybe. Then we'll have constructed our new high-technology industry. We'll finally stop being dependent on high oil prices.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Alternative reality, again. In 1922 Russia was a superpower and its economy was far-far from destroyed. By GDP it was among the world leaders.

I understand that is what your history books say: In 1922 country was ruined but effective manager Stalin appeared and turned the country in a superpower. Now, in 2000 country was ruined but effective manager Putin arrived and we will be a superpower again....
Real world is more complex than propaganda.

Under your "effective manager" Putin. Your GDP did rise (say thanks to Oil prices) but.... Other countries didn't stay in place. By % of world GDP, after 15 years you have little progress (if any)

Using that page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_largest_historical_GDP
Lets do some math...

Russia 2000 GDP = 1,122.589
Russia 2015 GDP = 2,827.978
+150%. Rather impressive. That doesn't take inflation in account ( I think), but still good. all hail oil prices Putin. And that without Crimea so your 2015 GDP is even higher!


For comparison USA "stagnated"
2000 = 10,289.725
2015 = 18,390.900
Only  +79%... pfff how pathetic comparing to great Russia

Now lets go to number two economy of year 2000
Japan:
2000: 3,260.583
2015: 5,021.990
+53%. Even more pathetic

With that rate Russia will be number one economy real soon. Its economy is growing two times faster than those that puny Americans have. Soon, you will be the number one. Or not?

India
2000: 1,593.083
2015: 5,750.467
+261%
How did they manage that without Putin?

China
2000: 3,019.505
2015: 15,923.626
+430% That is the real contender for American hegemony. Not your over-sized gas station


And one more thing, while Japan and USA didn't get that much in % increase. By absolute numbers they still got way more new GDP than you and you are more behind now than you was in 2000.
BTW the bigger economy is - The harder it is too grow more. So even if Oil price will stay high and all damage of Crimean adventure will be magically undone and corruption will stop growing: don't expect keeping two times faster GDP growth rate than USA

[Sergarr]

I don't measure progress in national strength by something as abstract as GDP. I prefer to rely on actual physical stuff you can see, like satellites, tanks and material science.

And I'm not sure if you know, but "effective manager" is basically a slur in Russia right now, because of how much stuff got destroyed by those so-called "effective managers" in 90s and 00s.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Oh. I see. Of cause. If numbers contradict your theory - call numbers "abstract".

And yes, I am sure that Russia 1957 had more satellites than Russia 1922.  As well as tanks, cars, aircrafts, refrigerators, televisors and so many other things. All hail Stalin. It is a result of his rule and technological progress has nothing to do with this 

[TD1]

Hm.

You could measure it against growth in similar countries, then see if it was merely down to the times. I'd do it, but I'm feeling too lazy atm.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

And one question I always wanted to ask you, Sergarr

You say that Russia has bad roads due to vast distances and cold climate... Then why Canada has no such problem?

[Loud Whispers]

Loud Whispers
Yes. I know. For Europe millions of dead Ukrainians will be preferable to war

Putin is not fighting to exterminate Ukrainians in gulags, Putin is fighting to secure Russian power and influence. Total death toll at anywhere between 2000 to 7000, nowhere near millions.

If we are going to be calculative over the cost of war, an open war with Russia would drive the death tolls much higher. In a war with Russia most of the Eurozone would be fucked, that goes without saying. It's grim reading articles from a year before the Crimean crisis even happened that warned the EU would be dependent on Russian gas for another decade at least, and if we forget energy; from New York to London to Moscow no markets will emerge unscathed, they're all taking hits already and there's not even a war. From the 1990s onwards America pressured Europe into building as much economic interdependence with Russia so that if Russia waged war on Europe everyone would go bankrupt and do so quickly. The inverse is true. From a standpoint of actually assessing what the butcher's bill in costs would be, Russia boasts some of the most modern weaponry in the world, literally millions of soldiers and are dead set on the mindframe that the West is out to get them and destroy them just as you are in the mindframe that Russians are dead set and intent on destroying you and all this whilst Putin is incredibly popular. Europe should wage war on Russia, kick start an economic collapse that would end Europe's economy and what for? Get Ukraine Crimea back? Is Crimea really worth all that? Maybe not, but I'd argue that the case for a nation's sovereignty must be defended as a virtue and democracy must be upheld. Though a cynical voice in the back of my head wonders what the point of national sovereignty is if it will simply be handed to the EU, and the EU then duck taped to the USA in the event of war.

Pragmatically, like trying to vote to remain in Ukraine during the Crimean referendum, war is physically not an option. War with Russia will destroy Europe and Russia, shake America and the damage will ripple across the world. The amount of people who would die would be astonishing as it would be the first battles between modern nations of equal peerage in military strength since the last bloodiest battle in all of human history. The Russian people would be lost to their voices calling for war against a West attacking them, the myriad voices of the West would be lost to their voices calling for war against a Russia attacking them. Before WWII European nations were superpowers unto their own right, needlessly shattering what relevance still remains is nightmarish.

Thus peace by virtue of necessity is the only way. Russian sanctions on the EU have dented the markets of nation states and hurt Greece, but that is so far the only extent of the damage. Threatening Putin, waging war against Putin - none of this has or ever will affect Putin. Yet fears and the Western banks alone have ailed an already stagnating Russia's economy and accelerated the flight of Russian money and financial workers much more easily intimidated by instability to the West. Fighting Russia when Russia wants to show its military strength is foolish when the West need only watch as investors prefer to wop it out in the metropolitan streets of Europe rather than Russia.

And one question I always wanted to ask you, Sergarr
You say that Russia has bad roads due to vast distances and cold climate... Then why Canada has no such problem?

Brits build stronk roads like Romans

Spoiler: Canada builds around the cold bits (click to show/hide)

[Loud Whispers]

And one question I always wanted to ask you, Sergarr
You say that Russia has bad roads due to vast distances and cold climate... Then why Canada has no such problem?

Brits build stronk roads like Romans

Spoiler: Canada builds around the cold bits (click to show/hide)

Checked Russia, and sure enough Russia does the same:

Spoiler: Fuck the cold bits (click to show/hide)

[stabbymcstabstab]

Have you guys ever seen a rural Canadian road? I have the suck balls and have killed two Vans and a four door from my family, so I'm going out on a limb and say there probably not that many paved roads in Russia that you can drive down with out shaking a small child to death.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Putin is not fighting to exterminate Ukrainians in gulags, Putin is fighting to secure Russian power and influence. Total death toll at anywhere between 2000 to 7000, nowhere near millions.

Putin is fighting to restore "Great Russia". Under current Russian historical myths and ideology that is plain impossible without the mother of Russian cities - Kiev. That is the goal. He needs whole Ukraine. Without that pesky wrong kind of Ukrainians. He and majority of Russians are ready to pay any price to achieve this .

Look at Sergarr. He happily glorifies the great times of Russia that included killing millions and millions of Ukrainians. He wants that back. And believe me, Sergarr is far from typical Russian. He is way more tolerant and liberal than what you can expect talking with a random citizen

Fighting Russia when Russia wants to show its military strength is foolish when the West need only watch as investors prefer to wop it out in the metropolitan streets of Europe rather than Russia.

Russian economy will collapse. Problem is that Russians will happily eat grass and unite more around the idea of fighting evil West

[Max White]

Hey guys, just dropping in to apologize to Owlbread. This happened.

Look, we don't like him, we are trying to get rid of him, we are sorry. We will send you a nice fruit basket in the mail.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Meanwhile Russians waiting to get home from Crimea. (web cam)

30+ hours in Queue. Enjoy your vocation, marauders. And good luck getting back to work on Monday. And enjoy nice Crimean summer with +35C^o

[10ebbor10]

On a side note, it would be interesting to see the USSR return. In the modern day, the Communistic system should work a great deal more efficiently.

1) Computers and advanced communication allow greatly improved resource allocation and production, eliminating the inefficiencies that always plagued the communistic system
2) Automation means that not everyone needs to work anymore. This is problematic in a capitalistic society, but a boon to communists.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Automation means that not everyone needs to work anymore

Khm. You know, being unemployed was illegal in USSR