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[GrizzlyAdamz]

Oh jeez, now that's just inviting our...not-so-progressive forumites into the wolf den.

[Kicior]

I read somewhere that the airborne units that have been surrounded near the border have been destroyed, is it true? It kinda sucks because it seems that the breakthrough is pretty close...
Also, did nobody post this or did I just miss it?
Anyway, I wish you luck fighting off the totally-not-russian invasion.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Airmobile units that fight near the border endure heavy fighting and their situation is getting worse, but they are not destroyed
 
The map is good, but tends to be little too optimistic and littler better (For Ukraine) than actual situation is

[Sergarr]

Guys, I think the European Politics place is probably not the best place for discussing sex/gender mismatch problem. Seriously, we have thread about this.

>Conflating homosexuality with gender dysphoria
>>Linking to gender roles thread
My eyebrow can't raise any higher.
You sir don't know many gay couples, do you?

*Kicks mainiac and all others who wish to continue this discussion into the fiery pits of the aforementioned thread.*

Provide a better thread.

If you need better thread, then create it yourself. This discussion is irrelevant to the thematic of this thread, and it doesn't matter that I mixed up trans-sexuality and homosexuality. If that makes you feel better, I did not do that on purpose.

[Owlbread]

If you need better thread, then create it yourself. This discussion is irrelevant to the thematic of this thread, and it doesn't matter that I mixed up trans-sexuality and homosexuality. If that makes you feel better, I did not do that on purpose.

Indeed, Sergarr didn't do that on purpose, that was just a mistake. The problem is we're discussing the merits of legislation in Ukraine and Russia specifically in relation to LGBT people and their rights. It's just that the discussion began to move into the issue of LGBT rights in general.

I think a thread for that purpose would be better though, or PMs as Ranger has said.

This was an interesting article also - "Are pro-Russia rebels fighting a 1920s war?"

Here is a great quote from the article:

The Civil War appears to have a strong romantic appeal for many of the separatists.

"Our Russian fighter volunteer corps is based on the ideals of the Russian White Guard, and most of our fighters are nationalists. They are idealists, they are defending the Russian people against the genocide it is facing. We are Russian imperial-nationalists," says Yevgeny Mazepin, a spokesman for the Russian separatists fighting in the Luhansk region.

"The Russian Civil War has not ended. We hope to end it in Kiev."

Until this year, most Russians thought their brutal civil war ended long ago, in the 1920s, consigned to history. But today Ukrainians are having to live through it again.

[Sergarr]

That's an interesting article. Indeed, there are many people in Russia who idealize the tsarist times. They tend to forget that in the Russian Empire, 90% of population was basically illiterate peasants enslaved to landlords who spend most of their time and money playing card games with each other. That's the ultimate reason why the White Guard lost: because the people did not want to go back into that hell where you don't even have a slightest bit of hope of getting out of it.

[mainiac]

who spend most of their time and money playing card games with each other.

This description amuses me for some reason.

[Dutchling]

Ah, what a time to be a hero. Maybe have a son and become a father. Just don't commit any crimes or you'll get punished.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

sorry i couldn't resist

[WarRoot]

who spend most of their time and money playing card games with each other.

This description amuses me for some reason.

Because you are thinking about Magic the Gathering nerds.

Also to add something politicsy:
We had a straight pride once. Basically no one went to it compared to the gay prides.

[mainiac]

Because you are thinking about Magic the Gathering nerds.

Well now I'm thinking that Tzarist Russia was the inspiration for the Yu-gi-oh cartoons.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Spoiler: Posted this in the progressive discussion thread, includes quotes from UR & Benzo. (click to show/hide)

Posting in here to migrate a discussion, there's been a bit more said in the other thread so you may want to check that out.

But how can a gay pride parade be equated with people having sex in public?

Wearing inappropriate clothes is a less extreme version of it. Inappropriate is not rational here. As well as ban of public sex. No rational thinking can prove that it should be banned.


Unless anyone will show me that some gene(s) that makes a person a (be)homosexual and lack of that gene(s) makes a person heterosexual, I will see assumption that sexuality is 100% innate as unproven hypothesis without any scientifical grounds. It may be true. It may be partially true. It may be untrue

Logic says me that human behavior is determined both by genes and what was pushed in the brain by society\experience. Usually the second part is more important.  Unless proven otherwise I will assume that it is true for sexual preferences, too.

The clothing issue, if it is so obscene, can be solved with clothing/decency laws. Not by banning any pro-gay discussion anywhere.
Meanwhile this propaganda law perpetuates a culture of shame & prevents gay youths from learning about safety- in-person or online.

Personally I'm more inclined to believe sexuality is formed by the tiniest little experiences in early childhood- what you see, who you talk to, smells, sounds or concepts. Somewhere in there your brain latches onto little tidbits to formulate its own baseline sexuality. And this process is so far under the radar parents (and the child) have little to zero control over it.
Once that's been solidified, there can be additions and small changes as the person grows older but the base is implacable, and thoroughly not a choice.
(any fellows have more to share on this and how I'm right/wrong?)

As for how this effects the conversation at hand, what you seem to be more interested in is how these people behave in public- that they should hide it away like a sado-masochist keeps their hobbies in the bedroom.
But as Owlbread pointed out, this doesn't address relationships-- a sado-masochist can marry their loved one, or forget marriage, they can go out on a date with them, or screw it, they can talk about who they are without fear of legal or illegal reprisal, while a gay person cannot. Their sexuality can't be kept behind closed doors- if a gay person wants to have a family or a loved one in their life, they are forced to fake a heterosexual relationship and/or to hide their true relationship like some criminal. What other alternative is there, other than sneaking away from the sexless wife to cavort with your gay lover? How do you think she'd feel about that? What's the outlook for the family?
Meanwhile, say you are in a secret relationship and you get into a car accident; the person you care for and who cares for you cannot visit while you are laying in a hospital bed in critical condition. And if you die? They are entitled to none of your possessions, which go to the rest of your family or, worse, the state.
This is a big issue in the US when it comes to gay marriage.


As for gay couples adopting, gay couples turning children gay is patently false.
Here's a decade-old reference, (though I couldn't find the base studies). Hopefully others in here have better sources?



Here is another quote to spur conversation in here.

That, and LGBT orientation are not really something that can be swayed by "propaganda". You choose your political alignment or at least have it influenced by your surroundings, but people do not choose their sexual orientation.

Is it experimentally completely proved, or is it just a current, most convenient assumption?

Tell kids that homosexuality is wrong, and they will believe it - giving rise to a generation of straight homophobes and self loathing, confused non-het people. Pride marches are not where LGBT individuals get put on a podium and feted some how by the rest of us in a big apologetic scenario, and instead are an acknowledgement that they are as valued a part of a open and secular nation as any other, free to live their lives as they see fit.

The idea of pursuing acknowledgment by dressing as ass-clowns in public is one of the main reasons why LGBT is loathed in the first place.

Oh, and giving all sub-groupings of people the same rights (for example, gay marriage) is not privileged treatment. If anything, it is the exact opposite.

Same rights mean same responsibilities. Marriage - is a juridicial mechanism designed by government to form productive cells of a society. Same-sex pairs do not exactly fit the criteria.
Therefore, either we expand the criteria of marriage as "whoever wants whatever with whom", but then it would be logical to allow, for example, polygamous/polyandrous/whatever-else marriages as well (which is still opposed in the West), or we do not allow gays to have marriages at all. Because, otherwise, it would be a privilege.

Bwahaha. Do you seriously believe this short of bullshit?

What special privileges do you imagine this "higher caste" of people gets, exactly? Because I haven't seen any...

And how the hell do the minorities "suppress" the majorities? And suppression isn't nearly as bad as oppression anyway.

Yes.
Having to have certain quotas of minorities in large organizations. Harder to fire them from job, for example, even if they are incompetent. Because else they would accuse you of discrimination.
Suppress, oppress, whatever - but being white heterosexual male in the West means being the most vulnerable social group.

[mainiac]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/world/europe/us-and-europe-agree-to-escalate-sanctions-on-russia.html

Good news for China.

[Sergarr]

I wonder, what can constituent the bad news for China? I'm actually curious.

[GreatJustice]

I'm reminded of how effective that first round of sanctions was.

[smjjames]

Could factors other than sanctions explain it though? Wierd that the sanctions aren't affecting Russian stocks that much.

Also, source?