Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[Owlbread]

Convenient to reframe this as America v Russia, init?

America, Russia and the EU are the three main geopolitical forces pulling at Ukraine and causing it to tear apart at the seams. That doesn't mean we think they're the only forces or even the strongest forces involved in this.

Not Ukraine, (or its oligarchs), wanting to join the EU, not yanukovitch fucking himself over, it's America showering the protesters with money,  for the ultimate goal of...what?

Not showering the protestors with money, funding the political parties with aims and goals most in-line with US foreign policy to ensure that they successfully overthrow Yanukovitch and become a strong enough political force to keep out The Party of Regions.

Meanwhile we've got treaty-violating economic bullying, military threats & a pseudo-invasion.
Damn those Americans and their pie-fingers, damn them!

Russia's interference is infinitely worse, don't get me wrong. We just have to be fair; Mainiac was saying this had absolutely nothing to do with the USA.

[Darvi]

Am I the only one here who dislikes his own country?

*hands up*

[mainiac]

America, Russia and the EU are the three main geopolitical forces pulling at Ukraine and causing it to tear apart at the seams. That doesn't mean we think they're the only forces or even the strongest forces involved in this.

So what if they are the 2nd and 3rd geopolitical forces acting on them?  That's not a high bar!  The influence of the US or EU on this situation is dwarfed by the actions of Russia.  And honestly saying it's US vs. Russia is even stupider, for the US this is a minor news item.  For Ukraine this is literally life or death.

Am I the only one here who dislikes his own country?

If you dislike your own country why don't you leave?

I like my country and think there's a lot of good things to say about it but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to point out it's bad parts.  I just think that criticism that isn't well grounded is counter-productive.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

You know I am starting to hate this: EU and\or USA started this all in Ukraine

All help that Ukrainians got during the Maydan was deep concerns and very deep concerns. In the end, after under orders of Yanukovich one hundred was killed EU arrived and showed its support.... To Yanukovich pushing a deal that would allow him to stay in power.

Now I see absolutely the same kind of support in the current events. All that EU needs is undisrupted flow of natural gas and relative stability near their borders. It looks like no one cares what will Ukraine lose in terms of lives and territory. Realpolitik....

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Now I see absolutely the same kind of support in the current events. All that EU needs is undisrupted flow of natural gas and relative stability near their borders. It looks like no one cares what will Ukraine lose in terms of lives and territory. Realpolitik....

Unfortunately, UR. You haven't lost the east yet, though. You're better off than the Crimean Tatars, are you not? I feel like the Donetsk 'republic' spiel will be about as far as this incursion spreads.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What the hell do you want the US to do, send Marines to hunt pro-Russian militants and march around Kiev? This isn't 1915, there's only so many things that can be done concerning a modern nation outside of our alliance.

[LordSlowpoke]

What the hell do you want the US to do

who are you even asking

i personally want the us to fix its own shit before it collapses because when it does that will be the domino effect that they fought against in vietnam except with the entire world economy instead of just capitalism but i guess that can't be helped

that guy over there wants russia to be nuked no matter what, this wants the us to nuke itself, the other wants to go on a genocidal rampage to take down vladimir the putin because russia is totally a good nation it just had shitty leaders and there's everything in between and shades of purple and gray and bleached yellow all in between like a donut shaped kaleidoscope

and then there's darvi, the smug nerd who i am still waiting on a bribe confirm from it shouldn't take long

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What the hell do you want the US to do

who are you even asking

UR.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

What the hell do you want the US to do, send Marines to hunt pro-Russian militants and march around Kiev? This isn't 1915, there's only so many things that can be done concerning a modern nation outside of our alliance.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It comes from Maydan times, right after the first deaths. It remains actual.

Ukrainians are angry not because we see lack of help (BTW, USA helped quite a lot.... I would remove it from the letter above. USA can't do much more without it's European allies being ready to wage diplomatic and\or economical  war with Russia) but because of that imitation of being on our side. Just say "We are neutral in this war, fight alone as you see fit".
And please, don't repeat stuff like trying to keep Yanukovich in power just to have stable if shitty country nearby. Analogue in the current situation - make Ukraine lose part of it's territory and sovereignty to keep Europe calm.

I suspect that plan of European diplomacy is to get a deal that will let Russia take what it took already in exchange for peace with "if you go further we'll impose sanctions" strategy.  Should Ukraine not agree on that Munich-style arrangement: Force it.

[Helgoland]

Am I the only one here who dislikes his own country?

If you dislike your own country why don't you leave?

I like my country and think there's a lot of good things to say about it but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to point out it's bad parts.  I just think that criticism that isn't well grounded is counter-productive.

I'm German. Disliking Germany is pretty much required to be one.
I suppose it's like a bad marriage: There's just so much shit (and our politicians are pretty decent, I'm talking about the population here), but I still feel like I belong here. In sickness and in health...

UR: How far would you go to regain Crimea?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

UR: How far would you go to regain Crimea?

What do you mean? Should Ukraine wage an open war for Crimea sometime later? Definitely no. It is not worth spilling blood over it unless pro-Ukrainian rebellion will start there. But that is very unlikely. The only entity that can do that in Crimea - Crimean Tatars.  If they'll go that far I see no reason for them to not aim for full independence

[Sergarr]

Now I see absolutely the same kind of support in the current events. All that EU needs is undisrupted flow of natural gas and relative stability near their borders. It looks like no one cares what will Ukraine lose in terms of lives and territory. Realpolitik....

Unfortunately, UR. You haven't lost the east yet, though. You're better off than the Crimean Tatars, are you not? I feel like the Donetsk 'republic' spiel will be about as far as this incursion spreads.

Would you have said the same when Crimea grab was still a new thing?

[Helgoland]

It was clear from the beginning that nobody would start an open war with Russia.

[Darvi]

and then there's darvi, the smug nerd who i am still waiting on a bribe confirm from it shouldn't take long

I'm still waiting for somebody to enact Operation Veidt aka "Thirtfy-five minutes ago".

[Sergarr]

Operation Veidt aka "Thirtfy-five minutes ago"

After decoding the message with Bad Translator I've got "Victor, also known as Thirtfy is the place for you."