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[Owlbread]

Oh boy, here we go.

Don't worry, I haven't got too much to say. I won't bore you.

I do trust them actually. I trust them much more than virtually any other mainstream party in Scottish and British politics. I agree broadly with their policies and think they're doing a better job than Labour, the Lib Dems or the Conservatives ever could up here. Their idealism is rare among their peers and I think most of their appeal lies therein. I just want to wait before I start making arguments for independence based on stuff that won't be in their model e.g. whether or not we'd have an elected upper house of government, or whether we'd be unicameral.

[MonkeyHead]

Oh boy, here we go.

Don't worry, I haven't got too much to say. I won't bore you.

I do trust them actually. I trust them much more than virtually any other mainstream party in Scottish and British politics. I agree broadly with their policies and think they're doing a better job than Labour, the Lib Dems or the Conservatives ever could up here. Their idealism is rare among their peers and I think most of their appeal lies therein. I just want to wait before I start making arguments for independence based on stuff that won't be in their model e.g. whether or not we'd have an elected upper house of government, or whether we'd be unicameral.

If you somehow pull off getting independance, please dont fuck it up or the rest of us will never get a chance.

[Scoops Novel]

I mentioned trust only because that's my defacto stance towards all major political parties (Edit: out of the usual paranoia, I'll adjust that to all successful political organizations as it stands). On that note, idealism? I recall something about 16 year old's getting the vote as a preliminary to the independence push. I wouldn't have thought so.

[Owlbread]

If you somehow pull off getting independance, please dont fuck it up or the rest of us will never get a chance.

Believe me, I've been wishing I had a time machine for ages so I could go to Ireland, Iceland, Greece and any other small country that's had financial problems lately and tell them they'll be used as examples against the independence of small nations for years to come. I mean, obviously I'd do the stuff everyone else does like subdue Hitler and Stalin, save JFK, have a chat with Buddha, Muhammad and Jesus etc, that's just one particular thing I'd like to do.

I mentioned trust only because that's my defacto stance towards all major political parties. On that note, idealism? I recall something about 16 ye year old's getting the vote as a preliminary to the independence push. I wouldn't have thought so.

I think the SNP are more idealistic than Labour, the Lib Dems or the Conservatives in that they are pursuing more radical policies like an independent Scotland, no tuition fees, no prescription charges, no toll booths, opposing privatisation of the NHS. They also carry themselves in a far more... well, optimistic way than the other parties. There's always talk of Scotland doing exciting things like being the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy or a "beacon of progressivism" and all sorts of stuff. Labour generally talk of a "strong Scotland in a United Kingdom" (whatever that means) and say we should start paying tuition fees again and spending that money on colleges.

Labour in Scotland on the other hand have called for a "review" (i.e. removal) of most of these benefits because we, allegedly, live in a "something for nothing culture". At least, according to the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Johann Lamont. The Liberal Democrats are now a middle-of-the-road party with no identity to speak of besides criticising the SNP, riding in the Tory party's unholy sidecar. I won't even go into the Conservatives, though their idealism with respect to Britishness is comparable to that of Labour.

Indeed, 16 year olds have been given the vote for the independence vote. I think that was very reasonable, given that they can join the army, pay tax, leave home, all sorts. They'll also live in an independent Scotland longer than than the rest of us, besides children. I think they should also be able to drink in pubs and drive, but that's another story.

[Loud Whispers]

I mean, I guess there's maybe a free speech argument to be had here somewhere, but I don't think it would've been preferable to wait until he'd gone out and seriously injured some Muslims before arresting him.

That's *IF* he'd gone out and injured some muslims.

Big if.

[Scoops Novel]

I mean, I guess there's maybe a free speech argument to be had here somewhere, but I don't think it would've been preferable to wait until he'd gone out and seriously injured some Muslims before arresting him.

That's *IF* he'd gone out and injured some muslims.

Big if.

Not worth the odds. Also, I'm expecting a caveat, Owlbread. If they're party is as good as you say, which i honestly doubt, and live up to their word, needless to say I'd expect echoing across the UK very quickly. Given the initial joking response here, i wonder how many would move there.

[Owlbread]

The SNP do have their flaws in their tendency to court big business, but that's quite important to the independence debate. If the Conservatives or Labour (or whatever cheek of the same arse they are, to quote Mr. Galloway) manage to get most of the Scottish business world on their side then they'd show up the SNP as being poor economists. The SNP want big, successful names to support independence.

The SNP generally don't have many flaws though, beyond that and the fact that they'd probably suffer fracturing in the future given that they're a bit of a hodge podge of people who want independence. The majority of those people are idealistic social democrats, but there is a more conservative side to some members in rural areas (though none of the current leadership, most of whom were once a radical left-wing republican group within the SNP called the 79 group).

Indeed, the SNP used to be known as the "Tartan Tories" under the leadership of Gordon Wilson, a man who was a bit of a wet blanket, quite frankly. Outspoken critic of gay marriage and so forth. The Unionist press in Scotland love him because he criticises the new SNP's left-wing policies, so they try to make out that he's actually influential somehow. He actually expelled Alex Salmond and the rest of the 79 group from the party because they were too left-wing. Luckily the SNP underwent a transformation under the leadership of ex Scottish Labour Party politicians like Jim Sillars, along with the 79 Group members. A bit like how Labour became more centrist, except in reverse.

[Scoops Novel]

Damn, you've gotten rid of your old sig. I wanted to ask you about that. Alright, the obvious question is if you get independence what do you see happening next?

[Owlbread]

Damn, you've gotten rid of your old sig. I wanted to ask you about that. Alright, the obvious question is if you get independence what do you see happening next?

I did like that old sig, I may add it back in. I've seen a few people with 3 parter sigs and stuff. It was a quote from one of my favourite fictional characters; Long Rob of the Mill in the book Sunset Song, written by Lewis Grassic Gibbon, the Scottish Thomas Hardy (though I think he's a much better writer than Hardy). He was based on Robert Burns, a kind of archetypal Scottish lowland farmer "of independent mind" who would sing old songs nobody else knew anymore and loathed the organised religion of the Kirk. At one point in the book he has an argument with an Anglophile from the village over whether it's worthwhile keeping the Scots language, that's where he starts talking about how there's words in Scots that you just can't get in English.

Good question. I think we'd just spend our time building the country to be the way we want it, to be honest. I can see us remaining within the EU, withdrawing from international conflicts, that kind of thing. I foresee a big spate of referendums at some point on leaving the EU, becoming a republic, leaving NATO and so forth. I think the SNP would remain the party of governance for quite some time, though I predict Labour will govern an independent Scotland one day. I think they'd find their identity with independence too, so much is lost in attempting to appease Middle England.

[Leafsnail]

That's *IF* he'd gone out and injured some muslims.

Big if.

A member of a violent extremist group, holding a machete and saying "hey lets kill the Muslims guys!"

Big if?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

A member of a violent extremist group, holding a machete and saying "hey lets kill the Muslims guys!"

Big if?

Only arrest terrorists I disagree with? 

Faith Matters, an organisation working to reduce extremism and interfaith tensions, has been one of the most cited sources for those who have noted an increase in anti-Muslim activity.

Their site features a statement on the 162 calls received since Wednesday, up from a daily average of between four and six. To report these numbers, Faith Matters have drawn upon one of their pre-existing projects, Tell MAMA, whose name is an acronym explaining what they do, Measuring Anti-Muslim Attacks.

In its first 12 months since launching in March 2012, Tell MAMA reported that there had been 632 anti-Muslim hate incidents, 58% of which were against women. If reliable, Tell MAMA's reports over the past week represent a 15-fold increase on last year's average.

They have also recorded ten attacks against mosques since Wednesday as shown below. These incidents, which have occurred across the UK, include smashed windows, attempted arson and, in the case of Cardiff's Shah Jalal mosque, bacon being left outside.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/may/28/attacks-on-muslims-numbers-detail

Is this still just rhetoric?

[da_nang]

That's *IF* he'd gone out and injured some muslims.

Big if.

A member of a violent extremist group, holding a machete and saying "hey lets kill the Muslims guys!"

Big if?

Where do we draw the line?

[Loud Whispers]

A member of a violent extremist group, holding a machete and saying "hey lets kill the Muslims guys!"

Big if?

Yep.

Only arrest terrorists I disagree with? 

Except they're not terrorists, they're average run of the mill football yobbos.

Where do we draw the line?

Kill all x

______________________

We're going to kill all x

[Leafsnail]

"Kill all x, here is the implement I intend to use to kill all x"

[Owlbread]

"Kill all x, here is the implement I intend to use to kill all x"

Deconstruct that further.

Kill all X - statement 1

Here is the implement I intend to use to kill all x - statement 3

Where's the missing statement? The... sort of "hidden" statement, if you will?

"I am going to kill all X" - statement 2

So technically he's implied he's going to kill all X, therefore he crossed the line and Loud Whispers' model applies. There is a difference between "kill all X" and "I am going to kill all X" because he's actually saying "We should kill all X". The "We should" part is just omitted.