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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1783103 times)

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4605 on: April 06, 2014, 05:13:30 pm »

What's your position on Alsace-Lorraine? :P

I'm ashamed to say I don't know enough about that region to comment properly. I never quite know whether there was once an Alsace and a Lorraine and the entire thing is an Imperial construct (then the ripping would commence) or if it's always been one cultural area. I shall do more research once I get home from unoccupied Ireland (posting from phone hence spelling mistakes and lack of eloquence).

I lean towards independence for that region anyway - no joining Germany under my watch I'm afraid.
Alsace was mostly German speaking, in Lorraine (well, in Moselle, which is the part of Lorraine that became part of Germany) German was dominant, but with a French minority. Dialect-wise and historically they are different cultural areas though, Alsace-Lorraine was just a construct under the Empire, under Nazi occupation it was split up and grouped with Baden and the Westmark respectively.
There are precedents for semi-independent countries (though Lorraine would be quite bigger than the former German part), but these go back to HRE times and aren't really viable anymore.

Today German is spoken much much less there, except by old people, and in Alsace more than in Lorraine, which seems pretty French nowadays. I live near the border, there are some villages that were literally cut in half, which doesn't matter anymore today with the open borders, you can just walk over there. It's kind of funny to hear an old lady say something in German dialect and have the young cashier respond in French, seems to work out well.

I'm not really aware of any relevant independence or German nationalist movements there. Front National seems to do well there though, at least in the rural and poorer former industrial regions.
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4606 on: April 06, 2014, 05:16:31 pm »

Also, there is an argument to be made that smaller countries tends to be more successful than large one.

Define successful.
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Darvi

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4607 on: April 06, 2014, 05:17:14 pm »

Aren't Wallonia and Flandre still trying to break up or something like that?
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4608 on: April 06, 2014, 05:21:21 pm »

Well, Flanders is trying to break up except not really. The plans of the main flemish party (the nationalists) seems to be to make Belgium so ungovernable it'll break under its own weigh, rather than campaign for a referendum or something.

As for successful, quality of life and economically-wise. Even excluding small tax havens, just look at the Nordic countries, Belgium, Netherland...
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XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4609 on: April 06, 2014, 05:46:48 pm »

As for successful, quality of life and economically-wise. Even excluding small tax havens, just look at the Nordic countries, Belgium, Netherland...
Though stuff like history and resources play a big role in that. It works well for many European countries that have historically been doing well and have had a relatively stable recent history. It works less well for countries like Portugal or Greece, which had military dictatorships not so long ago, and Eastern European countries which had been behind the Iron Curtain.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4610 on: April 06, 2014, 05:48:04 pm »

Yeah, actually, I just made a linear regression of GDP per capita (PPP) to population, and there is a slight but not really significant increase in GDP with population, lathough I suppose that's because most of the big countries in Europe are Western.
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olemars

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4611 on: April 08, 2014, 03:33:08 am »

The EU Data Retention Directive declared invalid. Getting that horrid directive repealed has been a major cause for anyone against overreaching surveillance (or should have been, if they were paying attention). At least some part of the system works, some of the time.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 03:34:53 am by olemars »
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XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4612 on: April 08, 2014, 05:44:05 am »

The EU Data Retention Directive declared invalid. Getting that horrid directive repealed has been a major cause for anyone against overreaching surveillance (or should have been, if they were paying attention). At least some part of the system works, some of the time.
That's great news. It was never really implemented in Germany (only for a short time) and some other countries (like Austria IIRC), because it was ruled unconstitutional, and the EU had been threatening huge fines ever since.

Though apparently the ruling has not abandoned the concept of data retention entirely (which would have been a huge surprise), it has just set the bar much higher.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 06:04:04 am by XXSockXX »
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4613 on: April 08, 2014, 03:23:07 pm »

How do rulings like that even come into effect anyways? Does every EU member get a memo to phase out any policies related? I've been wondering how EU court rulings actually change anything [such as the anti-anti-piracy rulings and such] and I'm curious about the structure.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4614 on: April 08, 2014, 03:40:48 pm »

How do rulings like that even come into effect anyways? Does every EU member get a memo to phase out any policies related? I've been wondering how EU court rulings actually change anything [such as the anti-anti-piracy rulings and such] and I'm curious about the structure.

I think this is the relevant entry (not sure though, not an expert in legalese, or the EU):
Quote
By an action for annulment under Article 263 (ex Article 230) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the applicant seeks the annulment of a measure (regulation, directive or decision) adopted by an institution. The Court of Justice has exclusive jurisdiction over actions brought by a Member State against the European Parliament and/or against the Council (apart from Council measures in respect of State aid, dumping and implementing powers) or brought by one Community institution against another. The General Court has jurisdiction, at first instance, in all other actions of this type and particularly in actions brought by individuals. The Court of Justice has the power to declare measures void under Article 264 (ex Article 231) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

So basically, if they don't ask, you can sue to the state. The EU court is a rather powerfull institution really.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4615 on: April 08, 2014, 03:57:37 pm »

A very short version would be like this: The EU Council decides on a new directive (in this case, data retention). The national governments then have to turn that directive into national legislation, if they don't after a period of time, they are fined. Somebody sued, and the EU court decided that the directive is unlawful. Now the national governments have to make new legislation to accommodate that ruling (the court has set rules for data retention, which set the bar much higher than the initial directive).

The German Constitutional Court had already declared the data retention directive unconstitutional in 2010, so it isn't currently implemented, but there is no new legislation on this either, so currently we have no law on data retention until the coalition stops fighting about it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 04:11:20 pm by XXSockXX »
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aenri

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4616 on: April 08, 2014, 04:04:22 pm »

How do rulings like that even come into effect anyways? Does every EU member get a memo to phase out any policies related? I've been wondering how EU court rulings actually change anything [such as the anti-anti-piracy rulings and such] and I'm curious about the structure.

I think this is the relevant entry (not sure though, not an expert in legalese, or the EU):
Quote
By an action for annulment under Article 263 (ex Article 230) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the applicant seeks the annulment of a measure (regulation, directive or decision) adopted by an institution. The Court of Justice has exclusive jurisdiction over actions brought by a Member State against the European Parliament and/or against the Council (apart from Council measures in respect of State aid, dumping and implementing powers) or brought by one Community institution against another. The General Court has jurisdiction, at first instance, in all other actions of this type and particularly in actions brought by individuals. The Court of Justice has the power to declare measures void under Article 264 (ex Article 231) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

So basically, if they don't ask, you can sue to the state. The EU court is a rather powerfull institution really.

You almost got it. But in this case it was a preliminary hearing on legality of the aforementioned directive referred to ECJ by an irish court, so Article 267. The Article 263 deals with member states and EU institutions vs. each another.
This case was about the implementation of the directive in Ireland, and the ECJ said that part of the directive is in violation of the Charter.

But yes the ECJ is very powerful in regards to EU law and disputes between EU countries and EU institutions.

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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4617 on: April 08, 2014, 04:37:42 pm »

I didn't really get an answer on the Scotland thing, so I looked it up. Here's something that agrees with my view; the Scottish would do better with more power than a split, which doesn't really seem to benefit all that much.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/07/independence-scotland-scots-powers-parliament-menzies-campbell
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4618 on: April 08, 2014, 07:36:55 pm »

I have just returned from the Emerald Isle on my short holiday, so I should now be able to debate properly without having to worry about telephone internet and roaming charges.

Quote
the Scottish would do better with more power than a split, which doesn't really seem to benefit all that much.

But it's not about the "split", my good sir. The only separation that's actually necessary here is the separation of the Scottish nation from Westminster rule for the reasons Descan so eloquently gave.

This is primarily about gaining powers as you say, and people like myself advocate gaining all the powers we can possibly get. That, by definition, is independence. The fact that we won't be a part of the same sovereign state anymore (rather, there shall be two) is just a side effect of us gaining total control i.e. our own sovereignty.

The vast majority of Scots would like a Federal Britain, but unfortunately that will never happen in the current political set up. No mainstream political party supports it anymore after the Lib Dems folded on it and it's simply not on the ballot paper. The proposals for further devolution from Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems aren't worth the paper they're written on. It's basically independence or nothing.

Quote
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/07/independence-scotland-scots-powers-parliament-menzies-campbell

« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 07:39:20 pm by Owlbread »
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TD1

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #4619 on: April 09, 2014, 12:23:31 pm »

Political power on world stage. You will have next to none.
Shared currency. Stirling-zone crisis?
Weakening entire U.K., and in the long run Scotland.
It will benefit one party over others.
Most people really don't want "The split," they want more powers.

Well, you've got attention. No one wants independence. So, why not democratically try to change the system instead of just jump out of it?
And what of the judiciary system? How will that be changed, or will it even be changed at all? I really see few benefits and potentially a lot of problems.

Also, what part of Ireland were you staying in? For holidays, I would suggest the East or North coast (They're really good.)
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