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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1783737 times)

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3510 on: January 23, 2014, 02:23:50 am »

So the opposition in Ukraine has issued an ultimatum for Yanukovych to resign. That means things might get interesting tomorrow.
The EU is now also threatening Ukraine with (unspecified) sanctions, though as I said earlier, there is only so much they can do. Russia is of course blaming the West for interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs.
There is talk of 7 casualties now, at least some of them were shot. Let's hope this doesn't get out of hand.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3511 on: January 23, 2014, 02:27:35 am »

Yeah, it's a pretty good deal, depending on the interest of the loan and such. Certainly not overblown on the costs. ((Similair to the intended costs of the EPR reactors, and other designs)).

And well, I can't really see how this is detrimental for their energy security. I mean, they get to choose between being nuclear fuel from Russia, or buying natural gas from Russia, or buying oil from Russia. And truly, of those 3, nuclear fuel is the easiest to find a replacement supplier for.



On a side note, here's some news from Europe's most glorious dictatorship, where equality and civil liberty have reached new heights Link

Jokes aside, sillier things probably happened in other nations as well.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3513 on: January 23, 2014, 05:16:50 am »

-snip-
Look, everybody in this thread knows UR's in Svoboda, everyone knows his views, everyone knows his posts have a certain spin. It's fine.

Valikdu, on the other hand... Let's just say that UR has supplied some interesting perspectives on the current processes in Ukraine.
My political position is one thing... The fact that  that my father, brother, sister's husband and several close friends are there at Independence square, and more friends and relatives nearby in Kiev makes my participation in discussion somewhat different. You guys have a luxury to discuss it as "Events happening somewhere" for me it's a very different story

I am very nervous here, you know? It's not easy to pick up the phone knowing that it may be bad news about people I care about. It's not comfortable to get nasty news and even more nasty rumors from the place that is 200km away from me.  Expecting me being cold-headed and accurate in analyses and predictions is little too much
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3514 on: January 23, 2014, 06:40:44 am »

We don't need a Ukrainian for cold and accurate analysis - what you're doing is much more interesting. This thread is actually one of my main sources of information about Ukraine!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 02:06:51 pm by Helgoland »
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3515 on: January 23, 2014, 08:22:23 am »

My brief and biased overview of notable groups in Ukraine right now

Party of Regions: The ruling party, hated by majority of Ukrainians, the only distinction that Western part hates them more and Eastern part view them as lesses of two evils and afraid of Neo-Nazis

"Communist" party: Has nothing to do with real communism. Getting their share of electoral field from nostalgic  elderly people and left-minded people who are not smart enough to see that this guys have nothing  common with Marx. Full puppets of the Party of Regions
Real left ideology in Ukraine is rather dead, that's one of the reasons why all attempts to start a nation wide strike failed. It's impossible to do without independent trade unions and left parties


"UDAR"
Opposition Political party centered around Klitchko with no other ideology but "European standards of life" and "Klitchko"
Probably the most popular opposition party in Eastern Ukraine, but still not popular because got allied with Nazis (Read Svoboda)

Batkivshchyna
Tymoshenko's party, liberals.

Svoboda
Right party. Was a choice of radical part of population but now gaining "dog that barks but doesn't bite" Kind of reputation, fast

Police
Some facts about our police as a whole
a) It is dynasty heavy, so there are a lot of grandchildren of guy who were in Law enforcement during Stalin's era. I don't say that they are same but...
b) Polls indicated that degree of trust to police was 30%, that's before all this shit began.  That kind of trust is well deserved by huge corruption
c) Most common informal name for them is "Musora" literally: "Garbage" the derogatory term once used by criminals, now universal name used by majority
d) They get rather good salary + allowed to gather bribes. So they have high social status and not ready to give it up easily

Titushki
Pro-Governmental thugs. Some are paid, some just hate "Banderas" and "American puppets"

Army
It was intensively cleansed during Yanukovitch rule so all top officers are his people
But
a) it is dirt poor and unhappy
b) It is mostly conscript based
c) That few professional soldiers had rather a lot joint exercises with NATO, participated in various peacekeeping missions and so on.

I honestly don't know which side the army will take, and will it act as a whole, or divide on side A and side B
For now they maintain strict neutrality

Right Sector
New organization formed around paramilitary far-right barely legal organization "Trizub"  Basically it is united all radical right-minding people. Various Ukrainian nationalists\patriots, Svoboda members that ignored "peaceful protests" policy of the party, Crimean Tatars, radical Christians, fans of almost every football club and so on. Very-Very mixed company  that wouldn't act together in any other situation
Right sector are the guys who started the fighting and who form after booing opposition leaders that encouraged to keep old strategy of protests
Official opposition has nearly as much control over them as Yanukovich

Ukrainians Type A
People that follow no ideology, just fed up and want changes for better, want to not live in North Korea and want to have someone to lead them in fight for better Ukraine. Some go after official parliamentary opposition, some are leaning to Right Sector's method

Ukrainians Type B
People who are scared seeing how situation escalates. Some are scared of Yanukovich dictatorship, some are scared of "Nazi Rebellion"

Edit:

forgot

Ukrainians Type C
Who don't care and pretend that nothing happens
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 11:46:53 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3516 on: January 23, 2014, 10:23:48 am »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zD3pOG-Tk - methods of our "Law Enforcement Forces"

And Russian comments supporting "police" below
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 11:47:31 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Kicior

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3517 on: January 23, 2014, 12:12:14 pm »

On the side note, Polish government passed a bill allowing them to call other countries police to 'help' in the event of 'major disturbance' in Poland. At least in Київ people are protesting against such laws.
Can you tell something more about it? I've heard about something like that but I thought it was just for the Euro2012?
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and slippedy sloppidy doo everything is made of fuck

miauw62

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3518 on: January 23, 2014, 02:00:30 pm »

Valikadu, please don't post if the only thing you post is just somewhat insulting things towards UR. (If you have proof of neonazism or crimes or w/e on their side or antyhing that's fine but you haven't posted any)
I don't agree with UR's views, but I respect them (which doesn't mean that I think the governement is right in this case, maybe ideology would be a more fitting word). Stay safe, UR. (Or don't die, if staying safe is not possible.)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:14:11 pm by miauw62 »
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Quote from: NW_Kohaku
they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the raving confessions of a mass murdering cannibal from a recipe to bake a pie.
Knowing Belgium, everyone will vote for themselves out of mistrust for anyone else, and some kind of weird direct democracy coalition will need to be formed from 11 million or so individuals.

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3519 on: January 23, 2014, 03:50:38 pm »


Paranoia is the founding myth of nearly every dictatorship.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 04:06:50 pm by Owlbread »
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3520 on: January 23, 2014, 04:01:07 pm »

pretty sure i'm going to spoil the secrets of life, the universe and everything owlbread but no side in the cold war had any intent to strike first

as in ever

therefore both blocs were defensive
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3521 on: January 23, 2014, 04:04:48 pm »

pretty sure i'm going to spoil the secrets of life, the universe and everything owlbread but no side in the cold war had any intent to strike first

as in ever

therefore both blocs were defensive

Did I suggest otherwise at any point?
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3522 on: January 23, 2014, 04:06:45 pm »

Spoiler: a bit, yes (click to show/hide)

via dismissing a whole argument you dismiss, well, a whole argument
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3523 on: January 23, 2014, 04:09:10 pm »

No, I didn't suggest otherwise there.

By "new Eastern Bloc" I was referring to the CIS and the attempts at a Union State which have, for better or worse, grown into attempts to create a new, redefined Eastern Bloc to rival the West. Granted, the states certainly have greater national independence than they did before which is a small consolation but such things are often temporary when elites are consolidating their grip on power.

I don't think I mentioned the old Eastern Bloc at any point apart from a few oblique references when talking about invading and subjugating other nations in the name of national security (see Poland/Hungary/Czechoslovakia etc, later Caucasian states).

Out of interest, if Ukrainian Ranger is reading this, may I ask you sir; how do Ukrainians in your sector respond to the music of 5nizza? It's just that I was wondering if enjoyment of their music would be found throughout Ukraine despite the fact that they're very distinctly Eastern/Russo-Ukrainian.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 04:26:28 pm by Owlbread »
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WarRoot

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3524 on: January 23, 2014, 04:15:40 pm »

WarRoot, I'm russky, too, if you're wondering.

So, I've read that article. Hm. Can't actually understand the opposition's point. Russia loans them a whole damn lot of money and builds them a reactor for their own needs and leaves it to their property, providing Hungary workplaces and energy source. Isn't government supposed to make decisions like that? I mean, why do they want to involve wide masses to this?

I should've guessed from the comrade :D

Well because it's quite a sum and it has to be paid back, and the deal was made in secret, which is suspicious. We only know details that the governments said, and who trusts their government in this case?
There are also concerns about the environmental effects, regarding the cooling of the new blocks, though I have no clue about that sort of thing.

I don't really know anything about how the price of constructing a nuclear plant is calculated. So... business as usual? Can't say how good or bad that deal is.

I understand how people in Hungary would be uneasy about being dependant on another country for their nuclear infrastructure, but that's apparently not new.

I'm pretty sure the uneasiness is amplified by the country in question being Russia, as in assuming there's no such thing as simple business with Russia, there's always some hidden trick or cost.

So I reckon it's pretty much non-news over there, interesting as it's still hot topic here.

Yeah, it's a pretty good deal, depending on the interest of the loan and such. Certainly not overblown on the costs. ((Similair to the intended costs of the EPR reactors, and other designs)).

And well, I can't really see how this is detrimental for their energy security. I mean, they get to choose between being nuclear fuel from Russia, or buying natural gas from Russia, or buying oil from Russia. And truly, of those 3, nuclear fuel is the easiest to find a replacement supplier for.

There's a bit more that. There was supposed to be a tender about the plant construction.
I think South Korea, USA, France was also interested and then it was forgotten and a deal was made with Russia (probably because of their loan offer), that's where the energy security accusation comes from.
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