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[RedKing]

Great romanticist rhetoric. However, unless Downing Street has begun setting up Scottish forced-labor camps or legalized discrimination against Scots or is stripping Scotland bare of resources and money while contributing nothing in return....not seeing the practical need for independence (yes, yes, I know...North Sea oil)

Personally, I don't think the oil is so important as to warrant independence. IMHO, Scotland is treated pretty well and considered as much a part of Britain as England is. If anyone could complain at getting short-shrift in the Union, it'd be the Welsh.

[MonkeyHead]

Oh, dont get me started on that! The many hundreds of years of shit make every rugby victory over the English all the sweeter.

[Owlbread]

Great romanticist rhetoric. However, unless Downing Street has begun setting up Scottish forced-labor camps or legalized discrimination against Scots or is stripping Scotland bare of resources and money while contributing nothing in return....not seeing the practical need for independence (yes, yes, I know...North Sea oil)

Personally, I don't think the oil is so important as to warrant independence. IMHO, Scotland is treated pretty well and considered as much a part of Britain as England is. If anyone could complain at getting short-shrift in the Union, it'd be the Welsh.

It's not about breaking free from tyranny (although that does play a part in it considering we are currently a target for terrorist attacks because of wars we're involved in without our consent, nuclear weapons are on the Clyde that we never agreed to, profits from our resources are being distributed across the UK) it's about realising our true potential.

We are treated very well, in fact we get more money through the Barnett formula than any other province of the UK. However, it's not enough. None of it is. You can call me ungrateful or greedy or whatever, but we are held back by the UK. To remove nuclear weapons from Scotland, demilitarise our society, protect ourselves from Westminster and make the most of what we have we must become independent.

One of the main reasons I think we need independence that I have yet to mention is that we must become more self-aware. For a nation of our size and wealth our social issues are atrocious, symptomatic of provincial governments letting things slide due to our status as a cog in the greater machine.

It's criminal that if I went to the very same hospital I was born in I could catch MRSA because it's just not clean enough, there's not enough beds and it's poorly managed. Money that could be spent dealing with all the little shitty things that can be found in every level of Scottish society has been wasted on wars, renewing our bloated and unnecessary nuclear defence program (conveniently placed in Scotland. It's impractical to move it to England of course because "it isn't safe" in the words of the British government) and foreign aid to places like India, despite the fact that they are currently developing a space program.

[10ebbor10]

I also find it rather ironic that you would secede from the UK, because you can't compromise, yet are then planning to join the EU, where you'd have significantly less to say and significantly more to pay. Solidarity is a rather big thing in the EU. It might seem like it diminished recently, but aside from the debts and loans the EU has a rather large subsidy and development system.*

But yeah, the British governemental systems has some serious flaws. FPTP and other systems.

*I think aid to Greece was 3.6 % of it's GDP for the last n years. (This doesn't count any debts and loans and such)

[RedKing]

Oh, dont get me started on that! The many hundreds of years of shit make every rugby victory over the English all the sweeter.

LOL....

"You may have taken our lands, killed our forefathers, suppressed our language......but we beat you 30-3! Suck on THAT, Edward I!" 


@Owlbread: Doesn't sound dissimilar to Texans claiming that they have to secede because Obama. Or California muttering about secession because the political attitudes on its population were utterly at odds with that of the Federal government during the Bush years. Or Alaskans for independence because those gosh-darned big-city liberals, you betcha.

[Sheb]

I also find the notion that Scots have any more right to dead liquid dinosaurs that anyone else laughable. But that same logic (which the Shetlands are apparently planning to use), anyone leaving on an oil field is being screwed by the rest of the world.

[Owlbread]

I also find it rather ironic that you would secede from the UK, because you can't compromise, yet are then planning to join the EU, where you'd have significantly less to say and significantly more to pay. Solidarity is a rather big thing in the EU. It might seem like it diminished recently, but aside from the debts and loans the EU has a rather large subsidy and development system.*

But yeah, the British governemental systems has some serious flaws. FPTP and other systems.

Like I said, I would be arguing on a platform I'm not 100% certain if I even want to stand on. I'm struggling to put my final argument into words because it really hinges on how much you understand Scotland or the rest of the UK - all the shitty little things in our lives that are caused by a lack of self-awareness and care on the part of ourselves and our respective governments. I have 1000 ideas for Scotland and they're either impossible or unfeasible under the UK.

I also find the notion that Scots have any more right to dead liquid dinosaurs that anyone else laughable. But that same logic (which the Shetlands are apparently planning to use), anyone leaving on an oil field is being screwed by the rest of the world.

They may be dead liquid dinosaurs but they're very valuable dead liquid dinosaurs. More importantly, they're our dead liquid dinosaurs.

Just so you understand what it's like living in provincial Scotland - the British government has introduced something called The Bedroom Tax to help with the recession. The tax works like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The ‘bedroom tax’ is a nickname for the under-occupancy penalty for housing benefit claimants in social housing, introduced under the Welfare Reform Act 2012 and due to come into effect in April 2013. Under the new rules, claimants deemed to have one ‘spare’ bedroom will lose 14% of their housing benefit and those deemed to have two or more ‘spare’ bedrooms will lose 25%. Claimants will be expected to move to a smaller home or to meet the cost out of other benefit money, and many are saying they will have to cut down on food or heating to do so. In most parts of the country, there is a major shortage of smaller homes for claimants to move to.

Claimants are entitled for a bedroom for each of the following:

    a couple
    a single adult (who is not part of a couple)
    two children of the same sex
    two children (of different sexes) who are less than 10 years old
    a child (where there is no other child with whom they can share)
    someone (who lives elsewhere) who provides overnight care to the claimant or his or her partner, if one or both is disabled

In addition, in response to political pressure, a ministerial statement was published on 12 March, providing for:

    approved foster carers to be allowed an additional room, and
    adult children in the Armed Forces, who are deployed on operations but who continue to live with their parents, to be treated as continuing to live at home.

There are no other circumstances which exempt claimants from paying the penalty for having ‘spare’ bedrooms.

We can't do anything about this law that's come from a government Scotland did not elect. Our government can't reject it and protect people from it because they have no real power - the British government would simply enforce the law through the police force and the army. We have had similar tax policies like this introduced by, again, governments we did not elect - namely the Poll Tax introduced as an experiment in Scotland by the Conservatives.

This may seem melodramatic but in principle it means we can't do anything about laws of this importance, designed and implemented by governments we did not elect. We can't choose not to go to war, who we trade with...

[RedKing]

MSH and I have 1000 ideas for North Carolina that are unfeasible in the framework of the United States. (Like execution by genetically engineered flying death squid.) Doesn't mean they're GOOD ideas.

They may be dead liquid dinosaurs but they're very valuable dead liquid dinosaurs. More importantly, they're our dead liquid dinosaurs.

Because the Picts secretly bred velociraptors in the Orkneys?? 

Actually, that would be utterly badass. Short, naked blue guys riding velociraptors into battle against the Roman Legions. Shit, no wonder they built a wall and gave up trying to conquer it.

[10ebbor10]

I also find the notion that Scots have any more right to dead liquid dinosaurs that anyone else laughable. But that same logic (which the Shetlands are apparently planning to use), anyone leaving on an oil field is being screwed by the rest of the world.

They may be dead liquid dinosaurs but they're very valuable dead liquid dinosaurs. More importantly, they're our dead liquid dinosaurs.

Aside from the fact that's oil is mostly made from plantbased material, the oil profit's are often overstated. After all, numbers often include the profits from the large gas fields in front of the coast of England.

Here's a map of the oil fields.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I dunno if it's only the UK's ones. But I do now that the UK's claim go rather far. Also, most of the oil explotation is done outside the UK's maritime zone, and is handled by treaty. Meaning that actually, you should go and give a significant part of those oil fields back to the Norwegians, who are closed by, and other parts to the nearby islands.

Also, a significant part lies in front of that little island which'd rather remains part of the UK, as the 9 vs 1 referendum proves.

Edit: Oh and since all these things are treaty and license based, it means that the potential independence of Scotland will have no effect on it. New discoveries, sure, but the old remain Brittish.

[Owlbread]

MSH and I have 1000 ideas for North Carolina that are unfeasible in the framework of the United States. (Like execution by genetically engineered flying death squid.) Doesn't mean they're GOOD ideas.

I may sound arrogant but I think mine are. I know other people also have thousands of good ideas for Scotland that are just unfeasible in the UK. Unlike North Carolina we can choose to go independent and come one step closer to implementing those ideas.

[Sheb]

Owlbread, what do you think of the Shetland's claim that it's their dead liquid Dinosaurs? Should they secede to get "their" liquid dinosaurs. If it's actually closer to the Shetlands than to mainland Scotland, and the Shetland want to stay within the UK, why should you have any claim to those liquid dinosaurs?

[MonkeyHead]

Most importantly IMHO North Carolina didnt exists as an established entity for many hundreds of years as an independant state/cultural entity before being "absorbed" into a greater whole. Scotland, Wales, NI etc. all did exits as places in thier own right, for far longer than they have been part of the UK in some cases.

[Owlbread]

Owlbread, what do you think of the Shetland's claim that it's their dead liquid Dinosaurs? Should they secede to get "their" liquid dinosaurs. If it's actually closer to the Shetlands than to mainland Scotland, and the Shetland want to stay within the UK, why should you have any claim to those liquid dinosaurs?

I am of the opinion that Shetland has the right to become a fully independent country, join the UK, join Norway or join China or anything it wants to. I think Shetland has the right to control oil resources in waters that are considered "Shetlandic waters", that would be whatever is decided by the International Court of Justice. They have as much of a right to self determination as Scotland does.

My vision of an independent Scotland would be federal, having an autonomous Highland region, Northern Isles, Western Isles, Eastern region, Lothian, Strathclyde and the Borders. The largest cities would also be autonomous, including Glasgow and Edinburgh. Add some of those regions together if it's easier. Each would have equal autonomy. If the Northern Isles or anyone else would rather be completely independent - so be it, it's their right.

You must remember though that (although I sound like Labour or the Conservatives or whatever when they say this is Alex Salmond's referendum, not the Scots') this is actually Tavish Scott/certain political figures' claim that the dead liquid dinosaurs are their dead liquid dinosaurs and that they should rejoin the UK. The people of Shetland have not really been asked.

Most importantly IMHO North Carolina didnt exists as an established entity for many hundreds of years as an independant state/cultural entity before being "absorbed" into a greater whole. Scotland, Wales, NI etc. all did exits as places in thier own right, for far longer than they have been part of the UK in some cases.

Very true. Scotland was independent for nearly a thousand years, the Union has been a blink of an eye. Albeit a very eventful one.

[Sheb]

Well, the article I cited do speakof a referendum saying they'd rather stay with the UK. With something like 90% of the vote. and even if you asks nicely, they'd probably take the dead liquids dinosaurs with them.

Anyway, I don't think the economics arguments for Scotland to secede or stay are good. It probably going to be doing about as good no matter what.

[10ebbor10]

Most importantly IMHO North Carolina didnt exists as an established entity for many hundreds of years as an independant state/cultural entity before being "absorbed" into a greater whole. Scotland, Wales, NI etc. all did exits as places in thier own right, for far longer than they have been part of the UK in some cases.

Actually, kinda the reverse happened. A Scot became King of England, and a good 200 years later they were merged, If I recall correctly.

I am of the opinion that Shetland has the right to become a fully independent country, join the UK, join Norway or join China or anything it wants to. I think Shetland has the right to control oil resources in waters that are considered "Shetlandic waters", that would be whatever is decided by the International Court of Justice. They have as much of a right to self determination as Scotland does.

You must remember though that (although I sound like Labour or the Conservatives or whatever) this is actually Tavish Scott/certain political figures' claim that the dead liquid dinosaurs are their dead liquid dinosaurs and that they should rejoin the UK. The people of Shetland have not really been asked.

I find the casuality which which you diminish the 9 to 1 referendum against independence (ie, for staying in the UK) striking. Do note that doing that rapidly diminishes the oil supplies. Shetland's 25%, more if the Uk puts pressure on things. Then there's the licensed fields, there's also some other islands, and the whole lot other diplomatic trouble. Also, the UK is not going to let go of those fields, and I'm pretty sure internation organisations will support them.