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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1750679 times)

Duuvian

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FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit

LordSlowpoke

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GreatJustice

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2792 on: December 26, 2013, 02:09:43 pm »

Equating fascist/Nazi evonomic policy with social democrat policies is ridiculous. Reining in the corporations? All real unions were banned. Fascist syndicates, fo example, certainly didn't look for higher wages and better conditions for them, but the exact opposite. The corporations got lucrative state-sponsored production deals and a compliant/slave workforce - sure, they lost some 'freedom', but they weren't being 'reined in' - the working left was.

In practical terms, though, the corporations were basically nationalized, with the former owners being made middle managers (Betriebsführers) at best. Nearly all important decisions were made by the government, especially relating to wages and prices. There weren't labour unions, but the economy was sufficiently controlled that any shopowner that charged too much or paid workers too little would be arrested pretty quickly, though this was basically limited to small businesses that the government didn't control outright. In practical terms, Germany was nearly as left-wing in economic policy as the Soviet Union was.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2793 on: December 26, 2013, 03:51:40 pm »

In practical terms, though, the corporations were basically nationalized, with the former owners being made middle managers (Betriebsführers) at best. Nearly all important decisions were made by the government, especially relating to wages and prices. There weren't labour unions, but the economy was sufficiently controlled that any shopowner that charged too much or paid workers too little would be arrested pretty quickly, though this was basically limited to small businesses that the government didn't control outright. In practical terms, Germany was nearly as left-wing in economic policy as the Soviet Union was.
That is right. The really important difference between Soviet-style communism and National Socialism (and similarly Italian Fascism) nobody mentioned yet is that the Nazis didn't touch private property, with two notable exceptions: a) some industries of strategic importance for the war effort and b) whatever they stole from the Jews, political opponents, other victims and in the occupied territories during the war. In practice, while you were subject to heavy regulation, you would keep ownership and control of any businesses or real estate you owned, while the Soviets would let you keep nothing. While your economic freedom was somewhat limited in NS Germany, you could buy or sell property or start and operate a business. This distinction is important because it is why a) the Soviets thought of Nazism/Fascism as just another manifestation of Capitalism and b) why the West initailly tried to appease the Nazis as potential allies against Communism (because while they weren't democrats, they at least weren't socialists).

They were socialist (although communist is a closer word; there is no way they would use it in their name) in the sense they wanted a single state government to be in control, stripping the private sector of the means of production and commerce, and the opposition of any power; the consolidation of power to the state.

Where they are different is what they do with that power. Whereas a communist government would work (or at least should work) for the equality of all men, a Nazi one worked against it. It established and strengthened inequality, made it pervasive, worked to enforce it. The Nazis and those of a similar mind worked to establish and maintain their hierarchies: one race above another, one caste above another, one profession above another, and above all the state and it's rulers.
There are some misconceptions in this. As I said above, the Nazis left the private sector be, as long and as far as it was in their interest to do so, while in communism there is no private sector because there is no private property.
The hierarchies the Nazis established were ones of loyality to their cause, they didn't really respect the existing hierarchy however. That's why they and the formerly powerful aristocracy often hated each other. To the prussian aristocrats and the rich industrialists that had dominated german society, the Nazis were initially just another proletarian mob, though many changed sides later on. For the average german citizen social mobility did still exist like before Nazi rule, even if political views could help or hurt tremendously, there was in no way a caste system or something like that, with the obvious exception of the racial aspect.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2794 on: December 26, 2013, 04:33:51 pm »

Russian lawmakers strive to remove the superiority of international law over Russian national legislation.
Is it just me, or is Russia really, REALLY looking like a banana republic, now?
Nah. Back to USSR no more, no less
For all the evils the USSR had and did, it had better social security and QoL for many Russians.
Tell that to the Polish.

today i learned poles are russians
Wow. Cars have Russians, our garage is filled with Russians, and my bed is about 30% made of Russians?

russians are a metamaterial

soviet engineering used russians a lot, that's why stuff like clocks produced in the soviet union last fiveever

compare and contrast nintendium for an american counterpart of russians
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Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2795 on: December 26, 2013, 05:02:44 pm »

wouldn't that be japanese?
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2796 on: December 26, 2013, 05:06:22 pm »

was japan by chance the leading country of a power bloc during the cold war

therefore nintendium is the american counterpart

my logic is bulletproof, because i coated it in russians too
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Duuvian

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2797 on: December 27, 2013, 01:11:22 am »

Russian lawmakers strive to remove the superiority of international law over Russian national legislation.
Is it just me, or is Russia really, REALLY looking like a banana republic, now?
Nah. Back to USSR no more, no less
For all the evils the USSR had and did, it had better social security and QoL for many Russians.
Tell that to the Polish.

today i learned poles are russians

That's not what I meant, I meant that even if Russians did well under the Soviets the Polish didn't do so well, at least during the period of time I'm reading about now which would be the early 80's.
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FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2798 on: December 27, 2013, 02:30:31 am »

Actually the Poles were better off than the Russians in the late 80's. The difference is that a) Post-sovietism went much better in Poland than in Russia, so you've got less nostalgia for the old days and b) Russia was a dictatorship under the URSS, but at least it was a mostly Russian one. The Poles, Latvians, Ukrainian etc feels like the got independence, the Russian feels like they lost half of their country.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2799 on: December 28, 2013, 04:58:06 am »

the Russian feels like they lost half of their country.
And that is a main reason why Russians want USSR back, social stuff doesn't bother them much

If you ask me, Russia is going post-WW1 Germany route. Putin may have a different vision but that is were passionate part of Russian nation is heading. Putin basically destroyed a liberal opposition, so only communists and neonazies remained. And when I say neonazi I mean neonazi, as a nationalist I know the difference.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2800 on: December 28, 2013, 05:32:56 am »

the Russian feels like they lost half of their country.
And that is a main reason why Russians want USSR back, social stuff doesn't bother them much

If you ask me, Russia is going post-WW1 Germany route. Putin may have a different vision but that is were passionate part of Russian nation is heading. Putin basically destroyed a liberal opposition, so only communists and neonazies remained. And when I say neonazi I mean neonazi, as a nationalist I know the difference.
If that was true then Cameron would have already gave away half of Europe to Russia for no apparent reason. Like Churchill did for Germany.
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Another

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2801 on: December 28, 2013, 05:39:05 am »

I don't like Putin or any of the parties in our parliament (especially that one that leans to nationalistic side (but is still much more anti-immigrant than anti-nonrussians)) but I see and hear people around and Russia is not on a nationalistic route.

Real neonazi skinheads exist here and are a shame but when some of them go to jail for personal websites "containing incitements for racial or religious hatred" they are accompanied by widespread public opinion that they got what they deserve.

Compare and contrast to swastika-waiving marches in Lviv honouring an SS division and Svoboda party that was rebranded from "Social-National Party" (deliberately reminiscent to you-know-who) in 2004 to gain over 10% in the elections but is still headed by the same people who fully satisfy this:
They were neonazis with shaved heads and bomber jackets in the 90's, - now they've suited up and tries to appear like acceptable human beings, but they're still the same scumbags underneath. That is why they are called neonazis.

As for similarities? Beyond the xenophobia? Extreme protectionalist nationalism and nationalistic protectionalism, social conservatism, homophobia, anti-semitism (doubly so when you realise Arabs are Semites too), rampant jingoism and war-romantising, and so on.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2802 on: December 28, 2013, 05:54:52 am »

Quote
I don't like Putin or any of the parties in our parliament
And who is left if you take parties of the parliament out? 

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but I see and hear people around and Russia is not on a nationalistic route.
Unfortunately nationalists are rare in Russia. Imperialists on other hand....

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Compare and contrast to swastika-waiving marches in Lviv
Russian television is so Russian. :)))

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"Social-National Party" (deliberately reminiscent to you-know-who)
The term  Social Nationalism was used by Ukrainian nationalists even before National Socialist party came to power in Germany

Besides that's different like, hm... feminine male and masculine female. 

But yep. It was a stupid name choice

Quote
Real neonazi skinheads exist here and are a shame but when some of them go to jail for personal websites "containing incitements for racial or religious hatred" they are accompanied by widespread public opinion that they got what they deserve.
Tell that to organizations like DPNI that is formally banned, but no one was ever jailed and they have an official, never banned forum, with sticky topics named like "Interracial Zoophilia"
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 06:08:26 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Max White

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2803 on: December 28, 2013, 06:46:01 am »

Nationalist or cosmopolitan imperialists? Also secular or fundamentalist?
Does Russia even have secularists?

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #2804 on: December 28, 2013, 07:13:14 am »

Nationalist or cosmopolitan imperialists?
If you agree to become a Russian, (Talk Russian, join Russian culture, follow orthodox church\communism and so on) you will be a citizen with full rights no matter what heritage you had. Else - you are a traitor and deserve to be destroyed. That's how Russian Empire\USSR always worked.  And I think it's changing, Russia is becoming more and more racist
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
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