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[10ebbor10]

Honestly, it's not just Spain. Both the EU and Nato have stated that an independent Catalonia would be excluded from the organization

I think something similar counts for Scotland, though it was worded more vaguely.

[Owlbread]

Honestly, it's not just Spain. Both the EU and Nato have stated that an independent Catalonia would be excluded from the organization

I think something similar counts for Scotland, though it was worded more vaguely.

It's as much bollocks as they say it would be for Scotland. There's nothing in the EU treaties that would say Catalonia would be excluded (nobody prepared legislation for this eventuality), it's purely down to the personal preference of the countries' governments and they'd be fools to destabilize Catalonia by excluding it. Like Scotland, Catalonia would not become independent as soon as they vote yes to a referendum, they would just get a democratic mandate from which they could negotiate. On that basis they could negotiate the terms of their membership of both NATO and the EU.

In our case the question will stop being "do you want Scotland to be independent" and will change to "What kind of Scotland do you want as a neighbour?" Do you want the neighbour who hates your guts because you blocked them from everything under the sun out of spite, or do you want a friendly trading partner? Don't shit on your doorstep as they say.

[10ebbor10]

There's nothing that says it would be included either. So you'd need to craft legislation on the spot, and well...

The EU is not known for making swift decisions.

[Owlbread]

There's nothing that says it would be included either. So you'd need to craft legislation on the spot, and well...

The EU is not known for making swift decisions.

Indeed, and frankly, Catalonia and Scotland have all the time in the world. We can become independent whenever we want if we have a democratic mandate, but that doesn't mean we need to become independent instantly. We can take our time.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There's nothing that says it would be included either. So you'd need to craft legislation on the spot, and well...

The EU is not known for making swift decisions.

Indeed, and frankly, Catalonia and Scotland have all the time in the world. We can become independent whenever we want if we have a democratic mandate, but that doesn't mean we need to become independent instantly. We can take our time.

Who are you and what have you done with Owlbread, you Tory scum?

[Owlbread]

Who are you and what have you done with Owlbread, you Tory scum?

I know, I feel dirty for saying that. I'm just glad though we have Cameron because he's such a dishcloth that he gave us free reign over our referendum, allowing us to do what we want. If he was like Rajoy we'd have to have another armed rebellion. But yeah the argument about taking our time, personally I'd want to become independent as soon as possible, as you know, but I understand that we need to take our time to work through the negotiations to get the best deal. If it takes a year or two more then so be it, even five, we've waited 300 years we can wait a few more.

I have to say though I was arguing a few years ago with Unionists that we should delay the referendum for as long as possible (i.e. until now) so the SNP and the rest of the Yes-supporters could prepare adequately for this year of campaigning that's coming up. All the Unionists wanted to hold it way back in early 2012 or something because they wanted to catch the SNP off guard, unprepared. I remember the buzzword of the day was "sooner rather than later".

It's also infuriating that the Catalans are securing themselves a second question when we fought for a whole year to get one included on our ballot paper while every Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative figure bleated about the referendum not being clear or being confusing. I think the Slovaks had a referendum with over 5 questions, but obviously Scots are uniquely stupid and we would get upset and confused if we had to make a decision on two things in one paper.

[XXSockXX]

Both the EU and Nato have stated that an independent Catalonia would be excluded from the organization

Though if it's a spanish EU commissioner saying it the whole thing looks a bit different.

Since there is no legislation for the case, I'd say it's a bit of a gamble. I guess in theory Scotland or Catalonia could immediately re-join, since they still comply with all EU regulations. (Dunno if the UK's special agreements make much of a difference in the scottish case). On the other hand it's logical that the EU would try to threaten and discourage independence movements, since it would set a precedent for other separatists. Spain has it worst, followed by the UK, France and then maybe Belgium and Italy.

From what I have heard experts say the worst case for Scotland would probably be having an EFTA-like status, like Norway, where you're included in all EU trade agreements but have no say in it. A full exclusion seems unlikely though, that would be too much and somewhat hostile indeed.
Then I have not heard all that much, the media here doesn't report all that much on the issue, if Owlbread wasn't in the habit of turning this into the General Scottish Independence Discussion I'd know a lot less about it.    The media here seems to treat the referendum like another British quirk and doesn't expect much to come out of it. Cameron's EU referendum is given a lot more attention.

[10ebbor10]

Doesn't matter much, does it. EU laws are voted on unanimously. You only need one nation to decide it doesn't like you and nothing is happening.

On a side note, I'm not sure if they'd comply. I mean, a majority of European nations is non complying with Eu regulation at the moment. Catalonia would have trouble getting in with their current fiscal situation. Scotland is doing a lot better, thanks to the oil.

[XXSockXX]

Right, I'm not that sure on the regulations part. That would probably mean being associated with the EU in some form and having to apply for membership, which can take some time. Seems at least impractical to fully exclude them from all agreements (like Schengen for example) if they are expected to rejoin soon-ish.
A permanent full exclusion still seems unlikely to me, it's completely against the whole idea of the EU and the general spirit in Brussels seems to be to include pretty much every country in Europe. (I mean why else the last expansion at that point in time?). Seems more like something EU commissioners would say to not piss of their government at home. There has been no "official" EU statement on the issue, so we'll see.

[Owlbread]

Do not worry, I am going to create a Scottish independence thread within the next week or so, or at least when the time is right. That will divert any such traffic away from this noble thread in the future.

[10ebbor10]

On a side note, the reason for the last expansion is that a lot of time goes over these things. I mean, I think the Croatia process started way before the financial crisis of 2008. Additionally, quite a lot of points of no return are build into the system.

On another note, the UK is not part of Schengen, and neither will Scotland. Ireland would like to join too, but is not allowed by the UK. After all, if one nation joins and the other doesn't then the UK would need to build a physical border to maintain it's isolated island status.

[Descan]

Or have Northern Ireland unite with... Ireland. OH THE HUE MANATEE

[Graknorke]

Or have Northern Ireland unite with... Ireland. OH THE HUE MANATEE

What, you think they would? I doubt it.

[Owlbread]

On a side note, the reason for the last expansion is that a lot of time goes over these things. I mean, I think the Croatia process started way before the financial crisis of 2008. Additionally, quite a lot of points of no return are build into the system.

On another note, the UK is not part of Schengen, and neither will Scotland. Ireland would like to join too, but is not allowed by the UK. After all, if one nation joins and the other doesn't then the UK would need to build a physical border to maintain it's isolated island status.

I recommend you read this. I have more to throw at you.

But yes the Southern Irish don't seem to really want the North much these days. The North has all its own problems and they'd like to keep it that way.

[10ebbor10]

I recommend you read this. I have more to throw at you.

That's not really relevant to the statement I made, which was the Scotland can't easily join Schengen *(I'm not counting joining Schengen but not fully qualifying, like Bulgaria and such).

The article merely argues that the fact that it can't join Schengen, isn't a problem for joining the union, in which I agree.

*Not without getting the UK to join too, anyway.