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[10ebbor10]

Sociological definitions are hard to change.

On a side note, while we're talking about immigration for some reason, a complete open doors policy is no solution. After all, the people you see arriving on the shores of Italy, or entering the EU through many other ways are not the poorest. People trafficking isn't cheap, and most migrants come from the middle to lower middle class. Emigration in those classes hollows out the countries suffering from it, preventing them from rebuilding.

Also, for the more accepted higher class migrants, their departure is even worse, presenting a significant brain drain on the countries they come from.

[Owlbread]

We changed it in Scotland though.

I've said before that the problem is that people who immigrate to Britain tend to immigrate to England (or indeed to London) and don't really call themselves English after that. They call themselves British, "English" being the term given to the natives, as it were. I've often argued that so-called British nationalism (i.e. of the BNP sort) is actually just a misguided, inarticulate form of English nationalism. My solution would be at least some kind of English parliament and other kinds of low-level distinctively English things being promoted down south to cultivate a more "civic" identity of Englishness. If I was feeling mischievous I would actually say that this entire problem has been created by the act of Union in 1707, and the subsequent dominance of "England" within that Union to the point that the words "English" and "British" became interchangeable.

Currently the government and the like pussyfoots around the issue by talking about this new "White British" definition, which takes the place of "English" in any censuses and such. Obviously the policy is assimilation of the "English" identity into a wider British one, but that doesn't work when Scotland is so defiant in its separateness. We don't tend to lump everyone together in that "White British" group, we just call it "White" but within that definition we have Polish, Scottish, English, Welsh etc, along with White British for those that would prefer that description. Asian people I think are separate too - Asian Scottish, Asian British etc. For as long as we've got this separateness (which will continue regardless of the vote on independence next year) then there will have to be a word for those people living South of the border, and "British" won't cut it.

In my mind though if I meet anyone with an English accent who was born and raised in England and continue to live in England, I just see them as English. It doesn't matter if they're black or white or South Asian or whatever.

[MonkeyHead]

In the hope that MonkeyHead reads this, I would just like to put forward a question regarding Wales. What are Plaid Cymru's chances of making greater electoral gains over the next few years? I understand that a lot hinges on the referendum (especially regarding Welsh independence and the idea of it becoming more credible) but I'm very curious as to how things are looking right now.

Is Leanne Wood popular to an extent? Is she getting through to people? I certainly like her politics more than the SNP's, but whether or not that would translate into being as good an operator as them remains to be seen by me.

Plaids chances in the next General Election? Well, as far as I can predict, they will not change one iota - last time around can be seen here. Plaid's heartland is the rural north west - Gwynedd and Anglesea. They will hold seats in those counties until the end of the world, despite the catastrophic loss of Anglesea last time around. Labour has a stranglehold on the south thanks to the valleys industrial heritage (save for little england in Pembrokeshire which is quite Tory in outlook, unsuprisingly, and Cardiff central, which thanks to a disproportionatley large student population usually votes LibDem, though how this will change with thier recent works is a mystery. Cardiff North jumping to the Tories by a few hundred seats last time was a shocker), and the borders and north east are typically safe Tory seats, save for in and around Wrexham which has "Labor post-industrial land" all over it. Plaid only really stand to make gains in Ceredigion (huge rural country with Aberystwyth at its heart), which has traditionally been a LibDem (pesky students)/Plaid battle (evil farmers), and will win Anglesea back based on recent by eletion wins. The typical majority outlook for a Welsh person is an odd mix of left wing traditional socialism with a streak of inward looking negative nationalism, which well suits Welsh Labour, and Labour as a whole who see most of Wales quite rightly as safe seats. Plaids odd blend of local nationalism and liberal green policies dont appeal to the urbanized south.

Currently, Welsh independance is totally off the angenda as a realistic option, at least until we see how "Yr Alban" jumps. There is an understanding amongst the general populace that we rely a great deal on Westminster, however rightly or wrongly that may be. The Senedd is currently run by a minorty Labour government propped up by Plaid (who like to think they keep Labour in check) and LibDems disobeying thier London bosses in cosying up with Labour. In a quiet manner Welsh Labour has been doing an OK job, not really winning fans but not really upsetting people - as the Tories are the only guys out in the cold (and they may be so for a long time based on our population distribution) everyone finds it easy to convince themselves that the current 3-way mishmash is better than them in charge - people have long memories, and clearly remember what Thatcher did to Wales. Welsh Labour has been kept quiet by Westminster by a slow drip feeding of increased powers and a budget that has been more or less maintained despite threats of cuts. Some criticism has been directed at them for being a bit soft or passive, and not doing enough to get us off the bottom rung in terms of UK performance accross the board. This is partially down to a signifigant lack of cash (the NHS in wales, education and transport all get far, far less funding per head of population allocated to them by Westminster via the Senedd than the English equivalents, with education the most noticable - a full 50% of what schools in England get), but nobody has made a case to suggest that this would be better if we went it alone. If Labour continue to lead the Senedd, independance will never be pushed for - the point is made very often that unlike Scotland, we simply could not afford to go it alone. Plaid would go for it in an instant, if they could get the seats, but that brings us to the next issue.

Leanne Wood is popular, but almost unknown to anyone not a Plaid supporter. This reflects how Plaid are seen - an inward looking party currently consolidating what they have, happy to work with Welsh Labour (who it has to be said, are far more like old socialist labour than the centre right mess in Westminster) in the Senedd rather than challenging them. Plaid are a genuine option in pretty much any region, but as mentioned previsouly the main parties have dynasties well set in most regions of Wales - Plaid habitually fall second or third behind the "traditional" party(ies) in elections. What Plaid need is thier own little Barak Obama or Tony Blair moment - someone to really generate enthusiasm or interest in a Welsh political party that simply wont be lapdogs to thier paymasters in London. A recent by-election on Anglesea was won in impressive fashion by Plaid, but as of yet they have shown an inability to break out of thier traditional heartlands into wider appeal. They just dont have the platform that Alex Sammond has generated over the years. Alas, this will probably never happen for Plaid - currently things are "Ok enough" for everyone to be comfortable with the current arrangement, unless Scotland goes for independance in a big yes, and it opens peoples eyes that things simply do not have to stay as they are.

[Owlbread]

Just as in the old legends that stated much of Wales was populated by refugees from Yr Hen Ogledd, even founding some of its kingdoms, those lands are becoming pivotal once again in deciding the future of Wales. I'm glad to see that Plaid is at least stable, but can you see the Lib Dems being wiped out in Wales at any point (as they will be in Scotland)? If Plaid can wipe out the Lib Dems, maybe they could take their place as the rightful third party of Wales bar none (if the Tories are indeed the second).

[MonkeyHead]

Just as in the old legends that stated much of Wales was populated by refugees from Yr Hen Ogledd, even founding some of its kingdoms, those lands are becoming pivotal once again in deciding the future of Wales. I'm glad to see that Plaid is at least stable, but can you see the Lib Dems being wiped out in Wales at any point (as they will be in Scotland)? If Plaid can wipe out the Lib Dems, maybe they could take their place as the rightful third party of Wales bar none (if the Tories are indeed the second).

Wiped out? Oh, very much yes. The main LibDem voters in Wales are often students in Cardiff or Aberystwyth Unis, and with the recent ConDem coalition, I doubt they have much pull with students any more. This benefits Plaid in Ceredigion and Labour in Cardiff. There is a real possibility of the Tories losing a lot of seats in Wales to UKIP, which is laced with a decent amount of irony.

[Owlbread]

If the Tories will be divided by UKIP's gains, could that play to Plaid's favour in rural areas? I suppose though the areas that would actually vote Conservative would be of questionable "Welsh" pedigree (if you excuse the expression but I'm not sure how to put it) and may be unlikely to be swayed by such Welsh nationalism. I could be completely wrong and your Tory heartlands are very distinctly Welsh/Agricultural, as things used to be in this country. As a personal note I'll be sure never to use the words "pedigree" and "Welsh" in the same sentence lest I find myself inclined to burn caravans and holiday homes.

That said we've got plenty of areas in Scotland that have larger retiree-English populations now (such as the borders and my own beloved county) and have been swayed to the SNP from the Conservatives because of their obvious competence and, to a lesser extent, their "inclusive" nationalism. Maybe it could be replicated in Wales.

[MonkeyHead]

Well, Plaid already hold sway in the truly rural and typical "northwalian Welsh sheep farmer and slate quarryman" areas in the West and North, and UKIP/Tory hardly register there. The Mid/East rural areas are of the "landed gentry" type of tory, which oculd be split by UKIP, but Plaid and Labour are knowhere there, leaving a 2 way dogfight between UKIP and Tory. There is nothing in the way of Welsh nationalism in Monmouthshire, for example. There is fervent Welsh nationalism in the valleys, but that is lost amongst a sea of left wing thinking (or more accuratley, "we fucking hate Thatcher").

[Owlbread]

Well, Plaid already hold sway in the truly rural and typical "northwalian Welsh sheep farmer and slate quarryman" areas in the West and North, and UKIP/Tory hardly register there. The Mid/East rural areas are of the "landed gentry" type of tory, which oculd be split by UKIP, but Plaid and Labour are knowhere there, leaving a 2 way dogfight between UKIP and Tory. There is nothing in the way of Welsh nationalism in Monmouthshire, for example. There is fervent Welsh nationalism in the valleys, but that is lost amongst a sea of left wing thinking (or more accuratley, "we fucking hate Thatcher").

Leanne Wood is a southwalian herself is she not? From Rhondda? It's a pity she hasn't been able to use her genuine leftist leanings to greater gains down there. She seems genuinely radical Left, at least in as much as she would prefer a Republic and so on. Monmouthshire really ought to be Welsh though, for it is the ancient land of Gwent.

I have actually heard that Welsh was spoken in some areas of Herefordshire until the 19th century.

[MonkeyHead]

She is, and would, but also knows damn well where the traditional support for her party lies. If we are ever to get independance, someone will need to tap into the nationalitic temperment in the south Wales valleys and prise them from Labour. There was some suprise in her election that as a Taff and a non-Welsh speaker, she wasnt a "proper Plaid leader", but the logic of appointing an outspoken liberal from the place where Plaid need to gain greater support is sound. Fair play to her for being one of the few who realistically consider Welsh independance a possibility, but she does not have the public profile of someone like Salmond to back it up, despite some high profile incidents, like her speaking out against the royals and protests over trident.

Regarding independance... There really is no public support for it, outside of Plaid's northern heartlands.

[Owlbread]

She is, and would, but also knows damn well where the traditional support for her party lies. If we are ever to get independance, someone will need to tap into the nationalitic temperment in the south Wales valleys and prise them from Labour. There was some suprise in her election that as a Taff and a non-Welsh speaker, she wasnt a "proper Plaid leader", but the logic of appointing an outspoken liberal from the place where Plaid need to gain greater support is sound. Fair play to her for being one of the few who realistically consider Welsh independance a possibility, but she does not have the public profile of someone like Salmond to back it up, despite some high profile incidents, like her speaking out against the royals and protests over trident.

Essentially the Welsh really need another Salmond, and they need him as soon as we vote Yes? I see where you're coming from there though, I've always known my Welsh relatives from Swansea and that sector to be very nationalistic indeed, though rarely to the point that they would support independence (they're cautious about that).

The way I see it though the Welsh are probably the only people in the British Isles that can truly lay claim to the "British" identity, given that they are the British themselves. The original British, as it were. The folk that now populate Yr Hen Ogledd and Lloegyr are just incomers.

[scriver]

In the meanwhile, Denmark is committing crimes against humanity.

I've ranted before about Sweden's horrible jail laws, haven't I? I'm fairly sure all the Nordic countries stems from the same tradition in that case, and sadly, there's nothing extraordinary going on in Svartholm's or specially targeted against him - it's just how bad our jails are.

Like I've said before, our prisons are fairly modern and very humane, but the jails still work according to the mindset of 100 years ago. If you ever get in legal troubles over here, it's not the prisons you should be afraid of, it's the jailtime you should fear.

Edit: it's pretty hilarious seeing Assange rant as if he didn't even know the difference between Sweden and Denmark, though.

[Max White]

Edit: it's pretty hilarious seeing Assange rant as if he didn't even know the difference between Sweden and Denmark, though.

To be fair the majority of Australians couldn't find either on a map.

[Darvi]

Denmark is easy to find. Just follow the poisoned corpses and severed skulls.

[LordSlowpoke]

spain blocks catalan independence referendum

fun.

[Owlbread]

I didn't think I'd ever say this but thank god for David Cameron and thank god I'm British (for now). If I was a Spanish Catalan god knows what I'd do.