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[aenri]

Refugee crisis: Germany reinstates controls at Austrian border: "All trains between Austria and Bavaria, the principal conduit through which 450,000 refugees have arrived in Germany this year, ceased at 5pm Berlin time. Only EU citizens and others with valid documents would be allowed to pass through Germany’s borders, de Maizière said.

The decision means that Germany has effectively exited temporarily from the Schengen system. It is likely to lead to chaotic scenes on the Austrian-German border, as tens of thousands of refugees try to enter Germany by any means possible and set up camp next to it"
What is a shengan and how can they do this but France can't put a fucking flag on their butter because " muh European solidarity"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/13/germany-to-close-borders-exit-schengen-emergency-measures

it is possible and quite legal to temporarily reinstate border checks in schengen, for reasons of ordre public, before great sport/political events, preventing the spread of diseases, national security and some other things I can't be arsed to remember right now. Ordre public justification is in full force now.

[XXSockXX]

What is a shengan and how can they do this but France can't put a fucking flag on their butter because " muh European solidarity"

France has done this too in the past when too many migrants were moving in from Italy.

it is possible and quite legal to temporarily reinstate border checks in schengen, for reasons of ordre public, before great sport/political events, preventing the spread of diseases, national security and some other things I can't be arsed to remember right now. Ordre public justification is in full force now.

This. 13000 refugees arrived in Munich yesterday alone. It is getting difficult to take in that many people and give them some sort of proper housing, care etc.

[Helgoland]

Considering how much Germany is doing, it would be pretty hypocritical for the others to not cut them some slack.

Cutting some slack? If it's against the law, it's against the law - then it's not about 'cutting some slack' at all. Nobody should claim that Germany uses double standards when it comes to the rule of law.

That being said, the measures taken appear to be permissible under the relevant EU treaties. And since this hardly means a stop to Germany's taking in refugees, it's nothing particularly noteworthy.

[XXSockXX]

Considering how much Germany is doing, it would be pretty hypocritical for the others to not cut them some slack.

Cutting some slack? If it's against the law, it's against the law - then it's not about 'cutting some slack' at all. Nobody should claim that Germany uses double standards when it comes to the rule of law.

Actually ignoring the Dublin treaty and letting that many refugees in in the first place was "against the law", though that is a law that obviously doesn't really fulfill it's purpose anymore and has to be reworked ASAP.

I wonder if our government has any idea what they're doing, flip-flopping between "let's take them all in" and "oh shit now they're all really coming". Seems like they were getting caught in a wave of euphoria and then harshly brought back to reality.

[mainiac]

Nobody should claim that Germany uses double standards when it comes to the rule of law.

Everyone everywhere chooses to enforce or not enforce laws based on context.  In the US there's even a formal legal principle called prosecutorial discretion that says law enforcement can chose not to seek punishment if it would be counter productive.  Pardons are of course found worldwide.

A double standard or "justice isn't blind" is where the law is ignored in order to target certain people.  If I hate Muslims but being Muslim is legal then I ignore laws that compel me to allow in muslim immigrants.  I claim there is an immigration crisis if Muslims are coming in but not if Christians are.  That is a double standard not that the law treats a crisis differently, the double standard is that law pretends there is a crisis or not a crisis depending on who would be effected.

In fact that thing that gets me so pissed off about Europe a lot is precisely because they adopt a double standard so much.  They will sign a new treaty saying "no more double standards!" and then break it before the ink is dry.  This is why it's so refreshing to see that Germany in this case is adopting a fairly egalitarian standard that will both be a welcome relief to hundreds of thousands of people and very good for Germany in the long run.

[Helgoland]

It's a weird but refreshing feeling to see you agree with me for once

The whole reason that there's so much rulebending and -breaking in Europe is that the individual states can go 'Screw you guys, I'm outta here' at any time. There's no superior force strong enough to actually enforce the rules when they're not convenient to the big players.

I wonder if our government has any idea what they're doing, flip-flopping between "let's take them all in" and "oh shit now they're all really coming". Seems like they were getting caught in a wave of euphoria and then harshly brought back to reality.

Or King Seehofer once again managed to inflate himself like a pufferfish and scared everyone into going in that direction.

I'm scared of the backlash that will follow the euphoria though. The current public opinion won't stay like this forever.

[XXSockXX]

Or King Seehofer once again managed to inflate himself like a pufferfish and scared everyone into going in that direction.

Nah, I actually believe that people on state- and community-level are at their limits. The governement overestimated the ability to treat that many people in an orderly fashion.

I'm scared of the backlash that will follow the euphoria though. The current public opinion won't stay like this forever.

Yes. This whole thing was very poorly thought through. It is the humane thing to do and it feels right, but it isn't all done with letting people just come here and have "refugees welcome" parties. There will be decades worth of problems and increased social conflict because of this.

It reminds me a lot of the euphoria after reunification, which after a year or two turned into "let's rebuild the wall" and has become kind of an ambiguous attitude ever since.

[Helgoland]

Recently I read that about 25% of Germans now think reunification was a mistake. Let's hope this issue is managed a bit better.

One thing I noticed only today, and which scares me: There's no talk at all about whether these refugees will ever return. Without a debate on this point, we're practically setting ourselves up for Palestina-style permanent refugees, with the official line being that they'll return at some unspecified later time and, as a consequence, no measures being taken to integrate them as permanent residents.

[XXSockXX]

One thing I noticed only today, and which scares me: There's no talk at all about whether these refugees will ever return. Without a debate on this point, we're practically setting ourselves up for Palestina-style permanent refugees, with the official line being that they'll return at some unspecified later time and, as a consequence, no measures being taken to integrate them as permanent residents.

Frankly I don't think many of them will return. There is no way the situation in Syria is going to improve soon, so they have nowhere to go.
Measures to integrate them are undertaken (though Europe as a whole has a very poor track record of integrating muslims, so yeah) as soon as it is clear that they can stay as protected refugees. It takes some months to process them, but then they get integration courses (600 x 45min of German + 60 x 45min of political and cultural education). That's not that much obviously.
I work for a company that offers education courses, mainly for the unemployed - financed by the state. We have a class of refugees now trying to get their driving license (Syrian licenses are not enough). It's difficult, mostly because of the language barrier and the bureaucratic labyrinth that is our social security law.

[mainiac]

Assimilation doesn't really take much in the way of active policy.  As long as there aren't active barriers, people assimilate.  None of the parents of the second or third generation asians and latinos I know in the US were met with assimilationist policies but their kids grew up very american.  German isn't the easiest language to learn but English is also pretty complicated.

[XXSockXX]

Assimilation doesn't really take much in the way of active policy.  As long as there aren't active barriers, people assimilate.  None of the parents of the second or third generation asians and latinos I know in the US were met with assimilationist policies but their kids grew up very american.

That is not always the case in Europe. We have more problems with 3rd generation Turkish immigrants than with the first generation for example. Men will import brides from their home countries who don't speak German, so the children won't learn it properly. Then there's the differences in values that sometimes increases in the younger generations, with chauvinistic, religious and nationalistic attitudes. Not always obviously, but still too often.
I don't think you can compare immigration to the US with immigration to Europe really. Except for the Asians maybe, which never seem to integrate fully but don't seem to cause any problems either.

[TD1]

The Labour Party has a great new leader.

Heil!
Edit

What will happen to Britain now that Corbyn is labour leader.

Actually, missed this post. So no need to mention it. Still. Behold the Corbyn.

[smjjames]

It's a weird but refreshing feeling to see you agree with me for once

The whole reason that there's so much rulebending and -breaking in Europe is that the individual states can go 'Screw you guys, I'm outta here' at any time. There's no superior force strong enough to actually enforce the rules when they're not convenient to the big players.

I wonder if our government has any idea what they're doing, flip-flopping between "let's take them all in" and "oh shit now they're all really coming". Seems like they were getting caught in a wave of euphoria and then harshly brought back to reality.

Or King Seehofer once again managed to inflate himself like a pufferfish and scared everyone into going in that direction.

I'm scared of the backlash that will follow the euphoria though. The current public opinion won't stay like this forever.

Who's King Seehofer? Wiki came up blank. Though Seehof is the name of a muncipality in Germany and Switzerland.

[Helgoland]

That is not always the case in Europe. We have more problems with 3rd generation Turkish immigrants than with the first generation for example. Men will import brides from their home countries who don't speak German, so the children won't learn it properly. Then there's the differences in values that sometimes increases in the younger generations, with chauvinistic, religious and nationalistic attitudes. Not always obviously, but still too often.
I don't think you can compare immigration to the US with immigration to Europe really. Except for the Asians maybe, which never seem to integrate fully but don't seem to cause any problems either.

Heh, a close friend of mine is Vietnamese - and is the proud owner of a plastic Pickelhaube

But yeah, European societies in general are more collectivist than American society, I think. It's easier for a random guy in America to go out, earn money, and become a good American by contributing to society than it is in Europe. Maybe it's the different attitude towards nationality: What makes one American is very much different from what makes one English, or French, or German.

E: Seehofer is the Bavarian, uh, I dunno. 'Strongman' is the right word here, I think.

[nenjin]

But yeah, European societies in general are more collectivist than American society, I think. It's easier for a random guy in America to go out, earn money, and become a good American by contributing to society than it is in Europe. Maybe it's the different attitude towards nationality: What makes one American is very much different from what makes one English, or French, or German.

I dunno, when I was in Germany, everyone in their 30s was telling me how easy it was to come and get set up as an American. As long as you have money and start learning to speak German, you can get along alright. Maybe not banking or any of the real professional trades (aka a "real job" by German standards), but enough to support yourself. Everyone kept telling me how speaking English left you the best positioned to get along in Europe, short of speaking the language of the country you're in. A friend of mine picked up and moved there for 3 years as well and said, while standards can be pretty demanding in Germany, it's very doable.