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[Graknorke]

...I don't think the US was involved with the Roman Empire. But to be fair, I might be misremembering my history here.

>Implying the Romans never went to the Americas

Git gud.

[Sergarr]

How can you even misremember history to the degree of US living in the same time as Roman Empire?

[Erkki]

I couldn't find the actual debt % but from 1945 onwards in just 8 years Finland had an additional "debt" of about 70-ish % of GDP in war reparations to USSR, while rebuilding country and relocating/building new homes to 1/4 of the population(refugees from lost territories). While still paying back old debts to the US mainly. No haircuts or Marshall Plan either. That hurt a lot but what helped afterwards was that the reparations were paid in material, machines and other physical products and the exports of those to the USSR kept going with little to no competition for decades after. The centralized program to pay the reparations founded many nowadays large companies (most no longer state-owned) and expanded areas of industry that probably would not have happened in similar scale otherwise. By 80s it was the USSR that was in debt.

[scriver]

How can you even misremember history to the degree of US living in the same time as Roman Empire?

American elementary school :v

[mainiac]

I couldn't find the actual debt % but from 1945 onwards in just 8 years Finland had an additional "debt" of about 70-ish % of GDP in war reparations to USSR,

IIRC, France made a similar yearly payment to Germany in the 1870s and Prussia made a similar payment to France in the 18-naughts although they were for fewer years.  The French actually did it quickly and efficiently since their capital markets could take up the slack.

Huge expenditures as part of GDP aren't impossible under good conditions.  The Soviet Union made "payments" to the war economy of 100% of GDP in a period of just two years, 1942 and 1943.  It's just a question of how everything balances out.  If you can balance, it's fine.

[Helgoland]

I don't get you. My point is that Greece's current debts are way too high. I pointed out that there is only one single example of a country paying such a high amount of debt. You said Germany was a second exemple. I pointed out that it did not since it got a large haircut, plus amazing conditions on repayment.

Well, it went 'Germany paid its debt' --> 'Germany got help!' --> 'Greece got help too!'.

The haircut alone, lowered the government debt pile by €106.5bn (equal to a debt-to-GDP ratio decline of 55.0 percentage points), but as Greek banks at the same time were holding almost 1/3 of the restructured debt, this also created the need for the Troika and Greek government to pay for a €48.2bn bank recapitalisation in 2012, which added back an additional 24.9 percentage points to the debt-to-GDP ratio. So all in all the net impact of the debt restructure in March 2012, was that it lowered the debt-to-GDP ratio with 30.1 percentage points.

30% vs 50% certainly is smaller, but hardly insignificant. And Greece has no destroyed country to rebuild and millions of refugees to integrate.

And IIRC (and the German media haven't reported blatant misinformation...) the repayment conditions for Greece are pretty good too. I read something like that even today: Schäuble's balanced budget would not be in danger if Greece stopped payments, because those payments aren't due for another ten years...


What needs to be kept in mind: The treatment Greece got is politically motivated, not economically. Economically Keynesianism makes sense - maniac's right in that regard -, but insisting that this crisis has no political elements is being either blind or dishonest.

[Sheb]

Ok, my point is that it doesn't matter if Greece got help in the past, because it's situation now is still too bad. Also, you're forgetting the part where repayment on the German debt were effectively capped.

But I think we all agree. It's just that somehow you manage to warp "creating a huge mess and wrecking Greece" into something that is not "a fucking huge mistake".

[Sergarr]

It's just that somehow you manage to warp "creating a huge mess and wrecking Greece" into something that is not "a fucking huge mistake".

Well if you presuppose that Germany is actually a vampire that needs a regular blood intake in order to keep functioning, it makes sense to not call bloodying Greece as a fucking huge mistake.

[mainiac]

Helgoland, you are massively understating the extent of the German writeoffs.  With Germany it was like %95 writeoffs in terms of the actual, interest adjusted value.

But that's missing the real point.  The real point is that sometimes countries need debts in order to invest.  That's a good, virtuous process.  Germany was devestated in 1919.  They got food given to them, then they got factories built by foreign capital.  When WWI ended the largest auto manufacturer in Europe was French.  When WWII started the largest auto manufacturer in Europe was a German brand that was owned by a US company and expanded with American capital.  It was good for Germany that more money was flowing into Germany then money flowed out of Germany.

Greece is not being given that chance.  Europe is insisting that Greece give them money but Europe is making it impossible for money to flow into Greece.  This is not a natural or inevitable process.  It is an extremely unusual set of circumstances that is keeping money from flowing into Greece.  And it is not Greece's fault.  At best it is gross negligence.

[Sergarr]

Europe is insisting that Greece give them money but Europe is making it impossible for money to flow into Greece.  This is not a natural or inevitable process.

Well duh, vampires are explicitly supernatural beings, it's no wonder that they cause unnatural processes to happen!

[mainiac]

Oh how surprising that the guy from eastern Europe wants the vampire lords running things.  Remove Vlad I say!  Remove Vlad!

[Loud Whispers]

Greek use of garlic extends back to Homeric times, where Odysseus used garlic to protect himself from Belgian sorcery that turned men into swine

[mainiac]

This garlic thing... wake up sheeeple!

Who lives for thousands of years?  Vampires.  So who has thousands of years to spread myths about vampires?  Vampires!  So if you hear a thousand year old myth about vampires you only hear it because the vampires want you to.

Vampires aren't repelled by garlic, it's their favorite flavor.  And why shouldn't it be?  Garlic is delicious.  They spread that "vampires hate garlic" myth so that whenever they show up in town all their food will start garnishing itself.  A few thousand years back they were like "man, this blood is delicious.  I wish I had some garlic to go with it." and then one bright vampire said "hey, I've got an idea!"

[Sergarr]

By that logic, Vatican is the central vampire stronghold in Europe...

it makes sense

[mainiac]

Vampires like Bling, yo.