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[scrdest]

You know, I appreciate the irony of forumites with Groucho Karl and Che-arles Darwin pointing out issues with the Marxist class theory.

[Sheb]

I quite like that Charlie Post link, lijacote. Not finished with it yet, so I'll wait before commenting further, but it's interesting and very readable so far.

Edit: I liked this part

On the one hand, deskilling, fragmentation, speedup and greater precariousness for all workers has weakened workers. But other aspects, particularly in lean production and just-in-time inventories, have given more power to strategically placed groups of workers.

Makes sense. If you want to pressure a corporation, aims for the distribution.

[Helgoland]

scrdest, believe it or not, but I'm a big fan of Marx's analyses. Not so much of the conclusions he drew, but that could stem from my being a member of the bourgeoisie


lij, I hope that 'fixating' bit didn't come across the wrong way - what I meant was

that you seems to try to fit a situation in the Marxist class structure when other definitions would probably serve your purpose better.

So I tried to seize the opportunity to learn more about the Marxist definition of 'class'.

In the process of production, human beings work not only upon nature, but also upon one another. They produce only by working together in a specified manner and reciprocally exchanging their activities. In order to produce, they enter into definite connections and relations to one another, and only within these social connections and relations does their influence upon nature operate – i.e., does production take place.

These social relations between the producers, and the conditions under which they exchange their activities and share in the total act of production, will naturally vary according to the character of the means of production.

Hm, I think this allows me to phrase my problem more precisely: Can we really say that a teacher, an industrial worker, a farmer, and a guy collecting bottles to make a few cents share the same conditions and social relations? I guess this was a sensible definition in Marx's time, even though the urban/rural split between farmhands and the industrial proletariat makes some trouble. But the integrating forces of pre-neoliberal capitalism, which have allowed the 'working masses' to get a share of the power, a share of the wealth, a share of the surplus they produce, along with the technological and cultural advances, which have led to a great diversification of production, have blurred the lines too much to keep this definition salvageable, methinks. I'm happy to be proven wrong, by the way - do you happen to have a link to a short intro to a modernized concept of class which addresses these concerns?

Pseudoedit: Alienation theory has become problematic as well: There's lots of people who would need to be classified as workers who would not describe their work as alienated. Teachers (at least some of them, certainly not all) come to mind.

[Loud Whispers]

5 britons confirmed dead in Tunisia, don't know how many Germans

[Guardian G.I.]

5 britons confirmed dead in Tunisia, don't know how many Germans

Judging by what Russia's NTV showed on the day of the attack, after the shooting calmed down, the first thought that came into the minds of some Russian tourists was to make photos of corpses at the beach and post them on Twitter. Quite lovely chaps. :/

[Sheb]

Negotiations broke down between Greece and the rest of the Eurozone as the Greek government decided to hold a referendum next Sunday on whether to accept more austerity for loans or not. Greece however is supposed to pay back 1.6 billions to the IMF on Tuesday that it can't afford.

Greece overall debt at the moment is 180% of GDP, thanks in large part to the total wrecking of the Greek economy (Which lost a quarter of GDP since 2010.) But thanks to the various bail-out, its debt is now mostly owed to Eurozone countries (220 billions out of roungly 340 billions total, with 30 billions to the IMF). In case of default, it's the Eurozone countries that would stand to loose the most.

[Sergarr]

Are there any ideas on how to actually resolve Greece situation without forcing their economy even further down by enforcing payments?

[LordSlowpoke]

have we tried invading greece

it sounds like a problem that can be solved by invasions

[Loud Whispers]

5 britons confirmed dead in Tunisia, don't know how many Germans

Judging by what Russia's NTV showed on the day of the attack, after the shooting calmed down, the first thought that came into the minds of some Russian tourists was to make photos of corpses at the beach and post them on Twitter. Quite lovely chaps. :/

Something has swept over all societies with smartphones, where the primary response to tragedy is to capture it in the phone's eye. A few weeks ago some poor bloke and blokess got trapped on a rollercoaster upside down and it took 15 minutes for help to be called because everyone was just filming.

have we tried invading greece

it sounds like a problem that can be solved by invasions

Greece is not a country easily invaded, from a practical standpoint. I don't think the EUrocrats will let Greece gain independence. I talked to a good labour MP who went on about how the EU would just not suffer to lose their border with Turkey.

[Helgoland]

have we tried invading greece

it sounds like a problem that can be solved by invasions

Reverse reparations - I think you're onto something!

[MonkeyHead]

5 britons confirmed dead in Tunisia, don't know how many Germans

Judging by what Russia's NTV showed on the day of the attack, after the shooting calmed down, the first thought that came into the minds of some Russian tourists was to make photos of corpses at the beach and post them on Twitter. Quite lovely chaps. :/

Something has swept over all societies with smartphones, where the primary response to tragedy is to capture it in the phone's eye. A few weeks ago some poor bloke and blokess got trapped on a rollercoaster upside down and it took 15 minutes for help to be called because everyone was just filming.

have we tried invading greece

it sounds like a problem that can be solved by invasions

Greece is not a country easily invaded, from a practical standpoint. I don't think the EUrocrats will let Greece gain independence. I talked to a good labour MP who went on about how the EU would just not suffer to lose their border with Turkey.

Sell Greece to Turkey. That's a few really big problems solved in exchange for a fuck-ton more, but at least it would be funny.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The correct answer is to go around with this year's olive oil supply and rub down any Greeks we come across. They'll be so busy homoerotically glistening in the Mediterranean sun that everyone will forget about the debt crisis.

[Loud Whispers]

Sell Greece to Turkey. That's a few really big problems solved in exchange for a fuck-ton more, but at least it would be funny.

Erdogan doesn't need help rebuilding the Ottoman Empire. He has already assembled his elite retinue for glorious combat. Their gorillion folded damascan steel is invulnerable.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

He's gonna go bankrupt reinforcing a retinue like that.

[Loud Whispers]

He had to disband his horse archer doomstack in lieu of cheaper pikemen/volley stacks. Powergaming git.