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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1781567 times)

RedKing

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17895 on: June 21, 2015, 12:39:40 pm »

Yeah, but there's a grain of truth to it. Unintentional good cop, bad cop scenarios.

Work with King, or else you'll wind up facing Malcolm X.
Work with Ghandi, or else you'll wind up facing Chandra Bose.
Work with Stalin, or else you'll wind up facing... Stalin.
This would make the best police sitcom
Stalin & Stalin -- the wacky NKVD comedy that's no SECRET!
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17896 on: June 21, 2015, 12:46:26 pm »

...inflict your version of goodness upon the world...
The motto of every great statesman.
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Bohandas

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17897 on: June 21, 2015, 02:21:31 pm »

Well, its fair to say that the Russian Empire was technologically stagnant prior to Peter the Great -- I mean, that was his raison d'etre as Tsar: "Hey, I've been to Europe and seen a world where there's more to do than sit in our castles and get drunk on potato squeezing!"
Russian Empire had many problems, but Sergarr says that without glorious Stalin Russia wouldn't get mechanized agriculture, powerplants, antibiotics and so on.
Well why would it get them? Russian Empire wasn't interested in helping "krepostniy" in any way. The ruling nobility would object to that. So the people would be still living in shit conditions. Just like people in Africa right now, Russian Empire would be like that, too. Shitty feudal state fated to be trampled over by other, better states.

This highlights the dishonesty inherent in cold-war era propaganda in the United States. Contrary to what the USA would have people believe, Russia was already a shithole even before Lenin and Stalin rose to power; In fact, Stalin's rise to power would not have been possible if Russia wasn't a shithole
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17898 on: June 21, 2015, 03:41:24 pm »

It had nothing to do with Russian industrialization.

"Nothing" is a very strong word.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17899 on: June 21, 2015, 05:37:55 pm »

Miscommunication was a factor.  If you think that was the only factor and nothing else mattered, I frankly dont think you are worth talking to.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17900 on: June 21, 2015, 05:43:49 pm »

I wouldn't put it past Germans to vastly overestimate the industrial growth potential of Russia, in order to justify high military budget to their elites, a la "bomber gap".
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17901 on: June 21, 2015, 05:47:11 pm »

Different interpretations are available

Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17902 on: June 21, 2015, 05:53:04 pm »

It had nothing to do with Russian industrialization.

"Nothing" is a very strong word.

The entire war started through a breakdown in relations in a matter of days. Hell, what I linked to earlier clearly showed reluctance to go to war; it only escalated when shit hit the fan in regards to Russian mobilization despite saying otherwise, causing Germany to feel betrayed and too started to mobilize for war.
The Willy-Nicky telegrams are entirely overstated as a fear of war.  Claiming that Germany felt betrayed entirely ignores that Wilhelm completely ignored Nicholas' efforts to ensure independent arbitration at the Hague, and that German ambassadors operating on the lead from Berlin were busily sending ultimatums backed by threat of military force, as Nicholas calls Wilhelm out on in one of the telegrams quoted on your link.  It was an attempt to keep Russia out of the war while Austria-Hungary gave their Serbian allies what-for.  The problem was that Russia could not easily back down again; the Germans and Austrians perhaps hoped for a repeat of 1908 and the Bosnian Crisis, but Russia had learned its lesson from that; Russia's failure to support Serbia then had already destroyed one government, and worse, Austrian revelations about Russian maneuvering in the years leading up to that had humiliated Russia, leading to Russia's reinvigorated military programs, especially that of 1912.  Indeed, this was one of the major fears on the Russian side, that their rearmament was not yet complete, and the major reason they pressured Serbia into accepting the Austrian ultimatum in the main, regardless of the cost of a repeat of 1908. 

On a lower level than Wilhelm III, Russian industrialization did indeed have a significant militarizing effect on German politics; Moltke the Younger was the primary advocate of a preemptive strike against Russia in order to defeat it and prevent its industrialization and militarization programs from bearing fruit.  Admiral von Müller described discussions to this effect years before the war, in fact, in 1912.  Germany, from the highest level to the low, categorically refused to put any pressure on Austria-Hungary to lessen their claims or, when Serbia accepted the near-entirety of the ultimatum, to accept this acceptance. 

Basically, when you say it started through a breakdown in relations in matter of days, you need to look at *why* relations were permitted to break down.  Remember, this is not the first major crisis since the Triple Entente became entrenched against the Triple Alliance.  The First and Second Moroccan Crisis, the Bosnian Crisis, and even the two Balkan Wars all failed to result in this major breakdown.  The major differences between 1908 and 1914, however, are that Russia has begun a massive military and industrial modernization in 1912 with the aid of French capital, as well as the expansion of the French army.  This threatened to overturn one of the fundamental assumptions of all German pre-war planning - the extended mobilization period Russia would require to put armies into the field, and undermined the requirement of German numerical superiority in the West as well.  In other words, the German General Staff, as led by Moltke, became increasingly convinced of the necessity of a war to be waged in order to reverse these trends at the point of a bayonet. 

EDIT:
I wouldn't put it past Germans to vastly overestimate the industrial growth potential of Russia, in order to justify high military budget to their elites, a la "bomber gap".
The devil of it is, they weren't overestimating it.  At least, not by that much; their plans required Russia to remain a completely rural backwater without railroads or a modern military.  Even an equalization of the military situation would have been enough to crush Germany between the twin vises of Russia and France. 

Remember, Germany didn't even declare war on Russia; Germany joined Austria in its war against Serbia, who was allied with Russia.
And that is flat-out wrong.  Germany did not wait for any nations to honor their alliances, except Britain - Austria declared war on Serbia, and three days later, Germany declared war on Russia.  Two days later, Germany declared war on France.  Austria doesn't declare war on Russia until August 6, three days after the German declaration of war on France.  Indeed, if France had accepted the German ultimatum to remain neutral instead of giving an ambiguous response, the German ambassador was authorized and required to demand the cession of French border fortifications to ensure such. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 05:58:57 pm by Culise »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17903 on: June 21, 2015, 06:01:50 pm »

ebin french surrender time

Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17904 on: June 21, 2015, 06:09:41 pm »

I was

Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17905 on: June 21, 2015, 06:11:32 pm »

I give up.
If you do remember the name of that book, though, feel free to post it.  I'm always on the look-out for interesting history books.  ^_^
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17906 on: June 21, 2015, 08:27:23 pm »

I understand Putin and Tsipras have been very close lately. I also notice how much Putin has been talking up the whole "pan-Orthodox" thing and the close relationship between Greece and Russia. In theory, if Republika Srpska declares independence and there's yet another war in Bosnia in the next few years, couldn't Putin keep a strong grip on the Balkans through Greece if they were willing to work with him?
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17907 on: June 21, 2015, 09:03:58 pm »

If you're going to tell me that Germany used a war with Serbia as an excuse to go after Russia while also going after France and England,
No, not England, Germany saw war with England as an unfortunate consequence.  France and Russia were the primary enemies.

There is this thing known as propoganda.  Germany doesn't say "we are going to war to dominate Europe" they create a situation that gives them the war they want.  Austria doesn't say "let's start a war with Serbia", they create such a list of demands that Serbia has no choice but to provoke them.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17908 on: June 21, 2015, 10:02:21 pm »

What if the point of discussion isn't to seek epenis victory but rather to discuss interesting subjects?
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: The Edition Edition
« Reply #17909 on: June 21, 2015, 11:01:51 pm »

I like to discuss the topic so I discuss it if it comes up.  I dont ask for your permission.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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