Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[Erkki]

I visited the Dresden Military History Museum last summer, it took the better of the day. I did like the side building where they had reconstructed a part of a WW1 era trench(lately found in Belgium I believe) with original at site found wood and equipment. But besides the parts with stuff preceding 20th century, it was 6 hours and 5 floors of guilt and shame. Made me feel a bit sad, as I felt a famous museum like that would have huge number of visitors and would more or less present the public opinion: not one single positive word about Germany. The very highest part of top floor with a platform with a view over the city was dedicated to the strategic bombings, basically swimming in guilt of Amsterdam, Coventry and London. Not a word about what happened to Germany itself or Japan. Or why, other than that Nazis were evil as obvious. It almost wasn't a museum of military history, like 2/3 of it was museum was just about everything bad Germany had done and showing the devices, machinery and tools used as well as the photographs.

Wouldn't it be about time for Germany to pull itself together.

[Zangi]

I'm pretty sure its not just errr.. Some random sort of group think psychology that is the reason why we don't have war in Europe anymore.  Its more like the propaganda and education drasticly switching over to saying:
War is bad, just look at what it has wrought upon us!  You and I saw what happened.  We do not want it to happen again, not for us or our children, right?

A very easy sell, considering the conditions the wars left Europe in...  It could have gone the other way if ruling governments decided that the commies were coming and Murica didn't become world policeEurope's defender/champion of capitalism/one of those crazy guys waving their super bombs around.  Or I guess outright surrender to communism.

[Helgoland]

Wouldn't it be about time for Germany to pull itself together.

We did, long ago in fact. Just in a rather peculiar manner. WWII and the Holocaust have become our national mythos - it's our claim to fame, so to say, it's what sets us apart from other nations. Those five floors of guilt and shame are to Germany what the Star-Spangled Banner and the War of Independence are to the US.

[smjjames]

Germany went through two world wars, got chewed up and spat back out, twice, I think they've probably worked out their warmongering.

I thought that, too, until recently. Maybe it's better than in the USA and Russia (the letter added in light of recent events), but it has gotten much worse throughout my lifetime. We also have got to remember how many wars Germany has been involved in.

What changed your mind? All I see in our media is the same-old self-righteous vulgar pacifism that allows us to feel morally superior to everyone else ("We learned our lesson, you didn't!") while not lifting a finger to do anything.
And what wars was the BRD involved in? Except for the Balkans and Afghanistan, that is.

I think he meant pre-20th century? Though you won't get far to the point where Germany as the state called Germany hasn't existed yet. I mean, it existed, just not in the form of a single state before that point.

[mainiac]

We did, long ago in fact. Just in a rather peculiar manner. WWII and the Holocaust have become our national mythos - it's our claim to fame, so to say, it's what sets us apart from other nations. Those five floors of guilt and shame are to Germany what the Star-Spangled Banner and the War of Independence are to the US.

You guys should save the Euro then have a new national myth about how you did something good instead of that crappy old national myth.  It's not like the holocaust is unimportant but most countries are able to get the idea that racism is bad and genocide a no-no without needing to have a national myth about it.  I dont think you guys are going to suddenly backslide if you dont teach it early enough.

[Lord_lemonpie]

ptw

[martinuzz]

Today, the Swedish air force along with some other NATO aircraft detected 2 Russian bombers and 2 Russian fighters flying over the Baltic Sea, flying stealthily without their transponders turned on, not responding to air traffic control hails, and not following any prescheduled flight path (all of which are against international air traffic laws). Danish and Italian fighters were dispatched to identify the aircraft.

The Swedish minister of foreign affairs, Margot Wallström called it "unacceptable".
"This is not the first time this has happened in such a bold way, and we are tired of having to complain about this repetitive breaking of international rules", the minister said.

[Helgoland]

We should start shooting them down, claiming we did not know they were Russian. Let's pit our chuzpa against Putin's.

[Graknorke]

we are tired of having to complain about this repetitive breaking of international rules", the minister said.

Pretty much the way it is. Less outright intimidating and more exasperating that it keeps happening.

[Baffler]

We should start shooting them down, claiming we did not know they were Russian. Let's pit our chuzpa against Putin's.

I like this solution. Perhaps a more direct slap in the face is what's needed here.

[martinuzz]

"oh sorry, we thought they were ISIL aircraft over the Baltic"

[mainiac]

Wars have been fought for many reasons throughout history; land, money, revenge and now literary irony.

[Guardian G.I.]

We should start shooting them down, claiming we did not know they were Russian. Let's pit our chuzpa against Putin's.

Yeah, and what will you do if Russia starts shooting down NATO planes flying near the Russian airspace borders in response to NATO shooting down Russian air patrols?

[Owlbread]

Yeah, and what will you do if Russia starts shooting down NATO planes flying near the Russian airspace borders in response to NATO shooting down Russian air patrols?

I don't think we should shoot anyone down for moral reasons, but there is a difference between shooting down planes in your airspace and shooting planes near your airspace borders.

I'd ask Russia to stop sending Russian fighter planes into "Scottish" airspace on a regular basis but it's quite helpful when they do that; whenever they take X hours to scramble some kind of force and send it North it proves to everyone just how little the British Government can do to protect us and how militarily inadequate they are.

[Guardian G.I.]

Yeah, and what will you do if Russia starts shooting down NATO planes flying near the Russian airspace borders in response to NATO shooting down Russian air patrols?

I don't think we should shoot anyone down for moral reasons, but there is a difference between shooting down planes in your airspace and shooting planes near your airspace borders.

The problem is - those Tu-95 bombers which trigger plenty of gung-ho reactions in Western Europe and America fly close to NATO airspace borders (but not in it). Shooting them down can create a very dangerous precedent.