Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Can we make a nice gaussian-looking curve?

A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A

Pages: 1 ... 86 87 [88] 89 90 ... 1393

Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1784149 times)

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1305 on: August 21, 2013, 01:40:52 pm »



As for the nukes giving you power in diplomacy, I call bullshit. Nukes are power you can't wield, since they're weapons that you can't use.
I guess that citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would disagree.
On a more serious note - if nukes are useles, why do so many countries have them? Why are people so concerned about Iran and North Korea having nukes?
Yes. Why are we even still talking about NK or Iran? How are the UK and France still that relevant in international politics?

It's a psychological game. Everybody assumes you're not crazy enough to use nukes, but deep down there is a hint of insecurity, "what if". And that is power.
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1306 on: August 21, 2013, 02:05:28 pm »

It's a psychological game. Everybody assumes you're not crazy enough to use nukes, but deep down there is a hint of insecurity, "what if". And that is power.
I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this use of the word "power".  Usually I don't take it to mean "a reason for other people to nuke you".
Logged

Scoops Novel

  • Bay Watcher
  • Talismanic
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1307 on: August 21, 2013, 02:13:12 pm »

It's a psychological game. Everybody assumes you're not crazy enough to use nukes, but deep down there is a hint of insecurity, "what if". And that is power.
I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this use of the word "power".  Usually I don't take it to mean "a reason for other people to nuke you".

Try the usual reasoning.
Logged
Reading a thinner book

Arcjolt (useful) Chilly The Endoplasm Jiggles

Hums with potential    a flying minotaur

ChairmanPoo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Send in the clowns
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1308 on: August 21, 2013, 02:20:26 pm »



As for the nukes giving you power in diplomacy, I call bullshit. Nukes are power you can't wield, since they're weapons that you can't use.
I guess that citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would disagree.
On a more serious note - if nukes are useles, why do so many countries have them? Why are people so concerned about Iran and North Korea having nukes?

North Korea's last sable rattling was an utter failure despite the nukes. Maybe they should have sold that plutonium and pocketed the cash, after all.
Logged
Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1309 on: August 21, 2013, 02:40:23 pm »

It's a psychological game. Everybody assumes you're not crazy enough to use nukes, but deep down there is a hint of insecurity, "what if". And that is power.
I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this use of the word "power".  Usually I don't take it to mean "a reason for other people to nuke you".
International politics runs on the underlying principle of "might is right". Call me cynical, but I think that is part of human nature. If people think you're weak, you already are weak.

Logged

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1310 on: August 21, 2013, 02:55:09 pm »



As for the nukes giving you power in diplomacy, I call bullshit. Nukes are power you can't wield, since they're weapons that you can't use.
I guess that citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would disagree.
On a more serious note - if nukes are useles, why do so many countries have them? Why are people so concerned about Iran and North Korea having nukes?

North Korea's last sable rattling was an utter failure despite the nukes. Maybe they should have sold that plutonium and pocketed the cash, after all.
Like they'd get it out of the country. They'd sell it they could.

Besides, succesfull nuclear gunboat policy requires you to:
1. Have nuclear warheads
2. Have a means to deliver them other than FedEx
3. Be willing to do diplomacy (Did they actually ever tell anyone their demands? IIRC, it's just a show to increase internal stability)
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1311 on: August 21, 2013, 02:58:10 pm »

I think you missed my point.  If other countries are terrified that you're gonna launch a nuke then they'll always be wondering whether they should be attacking now, in order to get the first strike.  MAD always seems to assume an evil aggressor rather than an equally concerned opponent.
Logged

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1312 on: August 21, 2013, 03:03:56 pm »

I think you missed my point.  If other countries are terrified that you're gonna launch a nuke then they'll always be wondering whether they should be attacking now, in order to get the first strike.  MAD always seems to assume an evil aggressor rather than an equally concerned opponent.
I really don't think so. Just have a look at the Cold War. MAD works because it assumes an equally concerned opponent. If you're dealing with a crazy evil aggressor, it won't work. Then again nobody is really that crazy, or has been so far, it's just the threat looming in the background that makes it all work.
Logged

aenri

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1313 on: August 21, 2013, 03:05:37 pm »

I dont think it is in any country´s best interest to give up their military power - and having nukes unquestionably increases such power. We can never forget the last World War - it happened just 70 years ago. And as we all know history repeats itself.

I cannot see world peace happening anytime soon. I can only hope that I will die before the next World War erupts.
Logged

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1314 on: August 21, 2013, 03:08:06 pm »

Both world war's are unlikely to repeat themselves. Not in Europe, anyway. It's one of the primary accomplishments of the EU.
Logged

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1315 on: August 21, 2013, 03:18:13 pm »

Both world war's are unlikely to repeat themselves. Not in Europe, anyway. It's one of the primary accomplishments of the EU.
Yeah, Europe is both too united and too irrelevant now to be at the center of a global conflict.
I disagree though that this is an accomplishment of the EU. I think it's the other way round, we weakened each other so much that cooperation was the only option left.
Logged

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1316 on: August 21, 2013, 03:23:18 pm »

Both world war's are unlikely to repeat themselves. Not in Europe, anyway. It's one of the primary accomplishments of the EU.
Yeah, Europe is both too united and too irrelevant now to be at the center of a global conflict.
I disagree though that this is an accomplishment of the EU. I think it's the other way round, we weakened each other so much that cooperation was the only option left.
Europe was in ruins the first time around too. We were pretty weakened then, but we rebuild and blew each other up again.

The EU was crucial to the prevention of the idea. It was founded, and was entirely build upon these words:

"Never again"
Logged

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1317 on: August 21, 2013, 03:33:03 pm »



As for the nukes giving you power in diplomacy, I call bullshit. Nukes are power you can't wield, since they're weapons that you can't use.
I guess that citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would disagree.
On a more serious note - if nukes are useles, why do so many countries have them? Why are people so concerned about Iran and North Korea having nukes?

North Korea's last sable rattling was an utter failure despite the nukes. Maybe they should have sold that plutonium and pocketed the cash, after all.
Like they'd get it out of the country. They'd sell it they could.
Cash For Plutonium
Logged

aenri

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1318 on: August 21, 2013, 03:44:33 pm »

Both world war's are unlikely to repeat themselves. Not in Europe, anyway. It's one of the primary accomplishments of the EU.
Yeah, Europe is both too united and too irrelevant now to be at the center of a global conflict.
I disagree though that this is an accomplishment of the EU. I think it's the other way round, we weakened each other so much that cooperation was the only option left.
Europe was in ruins the first time around too. We were pretty weakened then, but we rebuild and blew each other up again.

The EU was crucial to the prevention of the idea. It was founded, and was entirely build upon these words:

"Never again"

I think that EU (EC) played a minor role in preventing WW3 when the Cold War was raging, because of the weakened state of European powers in the shadow of USA/CCCP.

But after the dissolution of CCCP, the power of EU grew much stronger. The unity of countries, no borders and freedom are integral to peace in Europe. We came a long way in these 60 years, but it still can be undone very fast.

The next World War probably wont start in Europe (although technically WW2 started in Asia), because war is a very easy thing to start and it is pretty much unpredictable how and when. I wouldn´t believe anyone in 2000 who would claim that USA would try to repeat Soviet mistakes in Afghanistan.
I cannot even predict if something happened like assasination of US president by radiclists from other country.
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #1319 on: August 21, 2013, 04:11:05 pm »

I really don't think so. Just have a look at the Cold War. MAD works because it assumes an equally concerned opponent. If you're dealing with a crazy evil aggressor, it won't work. Then again nobody is really that crazy, or has been so far, it's just the threat looming in the background that makes it all work.
Yeah, look at the Cold War.  We came pretty fucking close to a nuclear war several times, largely because both sides were worried that the other side might launch an attack.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 86 87 [88] 89 90 ... 1393