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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1758167 times)

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12765 on: November 11, 2014, 08:47:56 am »

I actually kinda like that idea of specialized parliaments, although having each of them be that small means they lack granularity, and I'm sure you'd see all kind of shenanigans trying to decide which of them gets to decide on which issue.

I'm also not sure why those Poles seems to think that FPTP would solve those problems. Don't they know about the US or Britain? :p
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

olemars

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12766 on: November 11, 2014, 08:49:54 am »

I dislike the concept of "local" representatives in the national assemblies. As long as the distribution of seats is otherwise balanced to cover the nation fairly, I expect the members to work in the best interest of everyone as per whatever platform they were elected on, not just to get the biggest haul back to their county. This might be more realistic in (smaller) countries where regional strife is less entrenched though.

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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12767 on: November 11, 2014, 08:56:08 am »

Well, it's nice to have a representative you can turn to as a citizen. This being said, I'm not sure that geographical divisions are the best way to accomplish that. Hong Kong's system of having representative elected by particular groups (Trade Unions, Doctors, Bosses, etc etc) is pretty interesting, although adopting such a system would probably deeply polarize society along class lines.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

BlindKitty

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12768 on: November 11, 2014, 09:25:52 am »

Well, once our borders opened to allow free migration to the UK, about one million people got up and moved there (like 2.5%, 3% of the whole population). So I guess we are much happier (obscure joke: and with our mouths way more open) to have system like UK than like we have now. :P

And about specialized parliaments: I am open to discussion on this topic, as I never had a chance to actually confront this idea with anybody, and I would love to try and improve. If we can make it reasonable, maybe in 50 years everybody will be using it? :D
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12769 on: November 11, 2014, 09:35:39 am »

Well, for example, would the various "cabinets" be defined in the Constitution? Wouldn't that be not adaptable enough? How would the executive branch be appointed? A minister per "cabinet"? Also, wouldn't it make more sense to keep a parliament, but give voters a say in who gets to seat on which committee?
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

aenri

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12770 on: November 11, 2014, 09:41:01 am »

The problem with specialized parliaments is delimitation of power as Sheb mentioned. Who distributes issues to parliaments and what if they cannot agree on which parliament should vote for issue?

In my opinion parliaments in classic parliamentary systems are nothing but a rubber stamps for ruling party policies. If some party has over 50% of MPs, they can do anything they want and no one can really stop them. On the other hand if there are many small parties, they cannot pass anything in parliament if the big party says no.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12771 on: November 11, 2014, 09:44:05 am »

Well, I'd replace "parties" by "government", since in many countries you have to form a coalition to create a government, but that government will then have a majority in parliament and do whatever it wants.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12772 on: November 11, 2014, 11:21:09 am »

De facto, that is often the case, but minority governements have happened. At the same time, the other thing can also happen, were one of the government parties proposes something and pushes it through using votes from MP's in the opposition.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12773 on: November 11, 2014, 11:29:07 am »

Really? When was the last time that happened in Belgium?
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Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12774 on: November 11, 2014, 11:29:56 am »

February 2014

The Issue being approved that way being the expansion of Euthanasia to minors, supported by the SP.A/PS, MR/Open VLD, the Green parties and the NVA.

At this point, it's being considered in order to approve a Capital Gains tax, using support from the central government parties and the left-wing opposition. Probably not going to happen though.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 11:33:08 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12775 on: November 11, 2014, 11:32:19 am »

Uh, missed it. What was passed?
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12776 on: November 11, 2014, 11:33:39 am »

Additional information added to original post.

It was the Child Euthanasia thingy.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12777 on: November 11, 2014, 11:36:53 am »

Oh, right. It does happen from time to time.
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BlindKitty

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12778 on: November 11, 2014, 11:51:48 am »

Well, for example, would the various "cabinets" be defined in the Constitution? Wouldn't that be not adaptable enough? How would the executive branch be appointed? A minister per "cabinet"? Also, wouldn't it make more sense to keep a parliament, but give voters a say in who gets to seat on which committee?

Well, I rather thought about cabinets being defined by an act of lower level than Constitution (like most laws set by current parliaments) - let's call it bill, as Wikipedia seems to suggest it as a general term. Vactio legis would be long, though: new cabinet would be elected during next elections, to avoid additional elections mid-term. Those could also be removed/merged. We could even add additional question during elections with new cabinet: 'do you want this new cabinet to exist'? You know, merge referendum with vote, and not create this new cabinet if popular vote says it is useless. This isn't perhaps the most flexible approach, but I think flexibility isn't the most important part here.

Executive branch could be detached from cabinets, where necessary (for example, to allow more fine-grained control of executive branch, as flexibility here is more important, I believe). But the ministries (is it the right word for the whole office of a minister?) should be small and efficient.

Keeping the parliament and giving voters say in who gets a seat where might work, too. But it strongly depends on how much power committees have, because in Poland they seem to be rather non-important, really. The trick being you can change the law after it went through a committee if you have majority in the parliament, so it ends up shaped like the ruling party wants anyway, no matter what happens in the committees.

The problem with specialized parliaments is delimitation of power as Sheb mentioned. Who distributes issues to parliaments and what if they cannot agree on which parliament should vote for issue?

In my opinion parliaments in classic parliamentary systems are nothing but a rubber stamps for ruling party policies. If some party has over 50% of MPs, they can do anything they want and no one can really stop them. On the other hand if there are many small parties, they cannot pass anything in parliament if the big party says no.

Yep, distribution could be an issue here, that's true. That's why I propose the 'Elders Cabinet', with most-voted person from each cabinet getting a seat there, to decide which issue/bill goes where; this 'Elders Cabinet' could be created in different ways, depending on the country. For example, I would imagine King/Queen having something to say in that matter in constitutional monarchies. Or it could just be voted for normally, like the other cabinets? Maybe with some kind of limitation: only people who served at least one full term in some other cabinet can be candidates to 'Elders Cabinet'?

And the parliament being rubber stamp for ruling party is exactly the problem I would like to solve. ;)
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #12779 on: November 11, 2014, 11:54:00 am »

So how would the executive be elected?
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.
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