Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[Sheb]

And how would people generally percieve those Flemish that fought or collaborated in WWII? Heroic freedom fighter fighting against Franch-speaking oppressor, or Nazis?

[10ebbor10]

The entire collaborator thing doesn't live here like it does in wallonnia. People know it happened, but they don't really care.

So neither freedom fighter nor collaborateur. Just for the most part ordinary people trying to make the best of the situation.

[Phmcw]

France is taking a strong stence on the anti-vaccine problem. Good for them, I woulnd't mind similar laws in Belgium. I like this quote from Marisol Touraine, the French healthcare minister : “Freedom stops where public health begins”

[BlindKitty]

Are you actually serious writing that? Even forgetting about 1920, when Russia totally did just that (and got kicked in the balls for that, incidentally)

To be honest, 1920 started when Poland saw Russia was torn apart by the civil war and decided to expand its border. Hardly a case of naked soviet aggression.

Actually, this.
Pilsudski intended to rebuild the Rzeczpospolita in its 1772 borders. He wasn't a peace-loving non-imperialist politician at all.

So it's a case of Soviet Aggression because they forced you to attack them?

Also, the argument that you never moved out of your 18th century border is dumb, after all Russia never moved out of its late-20th century border by attacking Ukraine.

Yeah, because waiting for them to attack us (which would happen anyway, and soon) would be rather suicidal. It was actually one of the more reasonable decision in our history. About waiting for attack and then defending/striking back... We tried that 20 years later and it went down the drain. Unless you think that preemptive attack on Nazi Germany in 1937 would be a display of aggression on Polish/French part? Because... Then I can not agree with you.

Regarding borders: 1772 borders were the last borders that made sense from Polish point of view. Which borders should we seek after gaining independence? We were aiming at the federation in the Commonwealth of Polish and Lithuania style, maybe a little more United States flavored, and I can even say that I'm sure that have we succeeded, everybody in Central-Eastern Europe would be better off than in reality. Also, Sheb confirms Russian Federation for Soviet Union. Because Russia's borders didn't change since 19...20? I think, or at the very latest, 1945, not counting Crimea (which is another story, as I'm pretty sure USA would agree that Russia invading Alaska and sending a few million dollars wouldn't be nice move, even if they added that whoever sold Alaska to USA was crazy bastard and they are going to cancel that deal now). But this is not very analogous situation anyway, as Poland after WW I was fighting for it's independence, and it was fighting for it in the borders it had when it lost it, which seems to make much sense to me...

Not that anybody was OK in 1920s, to be honest. But Poland was one of the better countries than, I think, albeit that might be disputed.

France is taking a strong stence on the anti-vaccine problem. Good for them, I woulnd't mind similar laws in Belgium. I like this quote from Marisol Touraine, the French healthcare minister : “Freedom stops where public health begins”

I have a problem with that quote. And that problem is: why stop there, with vaccination, if public health is so important? Why not ban Coca-cola? Obesity-related health problems eat up a huge chunk of healthcare money!

[Il Palazzo]

Disclaimer: Blind Kitty's views on post-WWI Poland are not representative of all Poles', despite his constant use of first person plural pronouns.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Not that anybody was OK in 1920s, to be honest. But Poland was one of the better countries than, I think, albeit that might be disputed.

Problem of 1920s Eastern Europe. Is that everyone tried to get everything using force, not trying diplomacy or looking for compromises

For Example if Denikin recognized Ukrainian\Polish and so on independence in exchange for United fromt against reds. Bolsheviks would never rule

If Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus and Romania found a civilized solution of how to handle all that disputed territories and formed a coalition, resulting alliance would be able to stop Red Russia somewhere near Kursk

[scrdest]

Not that anybody was OK in 1920s, to be honest. But Poland was one of the better countries than, I think, albeit that might be disputed.

Problem of 1920s Eastern Europe. Is that everyone tried to get everything using force, not trying diplomacy or looking for compromises

For Example if Denikin recognized Ukrainian\Polish and so on independence in exchange for United fromt against reds. Bolsheviks would never rule

If Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus and Romania found a civilized solution of how to handle all that disputed territories and formed a coalition, resulting alliance would be able to stop Red Russia somewhere near Kursk

Amusingly enough, that's what Pilsudski was going for, IIRC, a multi-national, but unified, federation state.

[Sheb]

Well, as I said, the situation in 1920 east of Germany was a mess: Poland had just gained independence and its eastern border was ill-defined.

But even going by your account it doesn't make sense to qualify that war as Soviet aggression. Your argument is basically "We were peacefully invading large part of their country, when it become clear they were going to attack so we HAD to go to war with them! It's totally their fault!".

Again, it's more complicated than "Poles wanted more land and attacked Russia", but claiming it was a case of Soviet aggression is... silly.

Oh, and a French-Polish attack on Germany before 1937 (So before Czechoslovakia or Austria) would probably count as French aggression yes (At least without the benefit of hindsight). At the very least it would be hard to characterize the resulting war as a example of German aggression.

[10ebbor10]

I have a problem with that quote. And that problem is: why stop there, with vaccination, if public health is so important? Why not ban Coca-cola? Obesity-related health problems eat up a huge chunk of healthcare money!

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=edo3VOqjL9DraOn1gdAB&url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2079796/France-approves-fat-tax-sugary-drinks-Coca-Cola-Fanta.html&ved=0CDEQFjAE&usg=AFQjCNHJLHs6cNZfki25bFbv_WyIGlipxA&sig2=3sD7ui5u7GuZqcQ_a3BBHA

[scrdest]

Well, as I said, the situation in 1920 east of Germany was a mess: Poland had just gained independence and its eastern border was ill-defined.

But even going by your account it doesn't make sense to qualify that war as Soviet aggression. Your argument is basically "We were peacefully invading large part of their country, when it become clear they were going to attack so we HAD to go to war with them! It's totally their fault!".

Again, it's more complicated than "Poles wanted more land and attacked Russia", but claiming it was a case of Soviet aggression is... silly.

Oh, and a French-Polish attack on Germany before 1937 (So before Czechoslovakia or Austria) would probably count as French aggression yes (At least without the benefit of hindsight). At the very least it would be hard to characterize the resulting war as a example of German aggression.

That was pre-Stalin. In other words, this was USSR in the 'Global revolution is AWESOME!' phase, and it was public knowledge.

Oh, and also it's not quite that the western borders were all fine and dandy, shit happened there, too.

So yeah. 20's are a mess.

[smjjames]

Don't forget the stock market crash and global Great Depression at the end of that decade.

[Sheb]

True, although even with this in mind, the Polish case is special, has Poland had been part of the Russian Empire just a few years before. It was less about exporting revolution and more about squishing separatists.

[FritzPL]

How could a discussion about how Poland is the worst Eastern European country go on without me noticing?

Sheb, you are correct - the war of 1919-1921 was largely started by Piłsudzki, who sought to expand our borders, as stated a few posts back, to the pre-partition period. You can't possibly forget, though, that Lenin openly spoke of a global revolution, and that the Soviet march to the West was because he wanted control of Eastern Prussia so that he could directly influence Germany, at that time also going through a revolution. You can't just sit down and hope for the best when your neighbour is gearing up for war - it never worked out for France or the UK in the years before WW2. Hell, when Hitler moved soldiers into Rhineland in 1936, they had explicit orders, that if they were fired upon by at least one French soldier, the entire German army was to perform a general retreat. Not one of the Frenchies even aimed at them.
That's how Austria got annexed, that's how the 'Autonomous Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia' was formed, and that's how Poland was beaten. Because of no action taken to stop those responsible.

[scrdest]

True, although even with this in mind, the Polish case is special, has Poland had been part of the Russian Empire just a few years before. It was less about exporting revolution and more about squishing separatists.

No. Poland was not a part of the Russian Empire, not in the same way, say, modern-day Ukraine was a part of the USSR. Poland had been partitioned between three neighboring powers - Prussia, Austro-Hungary and Russia. While Russia got the biggest chunk, area-wise, it also got the worst as far as quality is concerned - basically just a fuckton of land but with very few major industrial or cultural centres, although they did, eventually, get the capital city.

So Poles were as much Russian separatists as they were German and Austro-Hungarian separatists.

[Sheb]

True that. Anyway, my point stands: the war of 1920 cannot simply be summarized as 'Soviet aggression'.