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[Flying Dice]

There's also the fact that it is much easier for bigots and such to spew their opinions, and to a much wider audience. Instead of ranting about the damned [insert group here] at a bar, school, workplace, etc. to a handful of people, they can do it online to thousands. Essentially the vitriol is at more or less the same actual level, in terms of peoples' thoughts, but the social and technological environment is such that not only is it much easier to express extreme views without the risk of being physically confronted, but such expressions are actually encouraged by a substantial portion of society.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I find the internet to be mostly civil. There are a few communities out there that encourage chaotic and antisocial behavior in communicating, but they aren't by any means representative of most.

I think the internet is more helpful than harmful in this regard. If you have a heated conversation with someone face-to-face you might decide the time has come to bash their fucking skull in, if you do this while the conversation is over the internet you will only succeed in breaking your hand and monitor. Thus the exchange can go on past the peak of rage until the participants exhaust their ability to be angry and more level-headed thoughts re-assert themselves. This doesn't happen every time, but I can all but guarantee it happens more often than in physical conversations.

[Loud Whispers]

It just ties into my theory that everyone is terrible, but in real life there are consequences that out weigh the enjoyment of letting all civilization collapse.

There are people who actively try to better themselves and others. This reasoning would make to believe that justice exists only to punish criminals and not to rehabilitate anyone or make better societies. That without law - people would kill each other for fun out of innate flaws like greed and hatred.

Nice people exist. I would go so far as to say that everyone with the capacity for reasoning has the capacity for compassion, giving up before giving the chance is a sure way to end progress before it is born.

[Zrk2]

But being nice is hard, and people don't like that.

[Frumple]

... it's really not that hard. With just about everything I've experienced so far, being nice not only took less effort, it was more effective, if at times somewhat less time efficient. That latter bit is probably why a lot of people tend to default to less than nice, as it does tend to get results somewhat quicker (though less effective results and often requiring much more effort.). People get in a hurry for some strange reason

E: And even then, it's not uncommon for it to be a short term time gain for a long term time loss, especially if you have to deal with the people in question at a later date. Burning bridges and annoying the staff is generally a good way for folks to remember and dislike you, y'know?

[misko27]

Sure, but that continues to fall in with picking it because it's a better option. Saying that choosing kindness because it gets you better results is Exactly the point.

Besides, there are really no nice people, only people who feel degrees of less selfishness then others. But there are no peopel who don't feel them. And that, there is my point. You can try to hide it, but it is human nature. And really, if you think about it, evil is the triumph of the individual concern over the concern of others. In this case, the triumph of "This will be fun" versus "that would be mean to say".Selfishness is the ultimate evil. All others take rights from others, take advantage, etc. the problem being, selfishness is pretty much essential to living in a selfish world. Hence humans are selfish to survive and thrive, hence they are, therefore, evil. Except kaiyjuu, hence his status as my opposite.

And this is only my opinion.

[kaijyuu]

Hence humans are selfish to survive and thrive, hence they are, therefore, evil. Except kaiyjuu

Uh, thanks xD

[Loud Whispers]

Besides, there are really no nice people, only people who feel degrees of less selfishness then others. But there are no peopel who don't feel them. And that, there is my point. You can try to hide it, but it is human nature. And really, if you think about it, evil is the triumph of the individual concern over the concern of others. In this case, the triumph of "This will be fun" versus "that would be mean to say".Selfishness is the ultimate evil. All others take rights from others, take advantage, etc. the problem being, selfishness is pretty much essential to living in a selfish world. Hence humans are selfish to survive and thrive, hence they are, therefore, evil. Except kaiyjuu, hence his status as my opposite.

And this is only my opinion.

And your opinion takes it to say that people are innately evil and incapable of freeing themselves from selfishness. This is resignation from even attempting to change bad things to good qualities.
My opinion would be to say it is that human nature is by its nature adaptable. So many animals are selfish and instinctual, yet it is we who could look at victims and the broken and choose to extend the hand of compassion instead of condemnation and exploitation.
When you say that humans live selfish lives in a selfish world, you spit on the innumerable acts of kindness that have brought humans to where they are now. Selfishness is not the only evil in this world. Those evils must be addressed.
Saying any evil is necessary is losing your humanity.

[Zangi]

Besides, there are really no nice people, only people who feel degrees of less selfishness then others. But there are no peopel who don't feel them. And that, there is my point. You can try to hide it, but it is human nature. And really, if you think about it, evil is the triumph of the individual concern over the concern of others. In this case, the triumph of "This will be fun" versus "that would be mean to say".Selfishness is the ultimate evil. All others take rights from others, take advantage, etc. the problem being, selfishness is pretty much essential to living in a selfish world. Hence humans are selfish to survive and thrive, hence they are, therefore, evil. Except kaiyjuu, hence his status as my opposite.

And this is only my opinion.

And your opinion takes it to say that people are innately evil and incapable of freeing themselves from selfishness. This is resignation from even attempting to change bad things to good qualities.
My opinion would be to say it is that human nature is by its nature adaptable. So many animals are selfish and instinctual, yet it is we who could look at victims and the broken and choose to extend the hand of compassion instead of condemnation and exploitation.
When you say that humans live selfish lives in a selfish world, you spit on the innumerable acts of kindness that have brought humans to where they are now. Selfishness is not the only evil in this world. Those evils must be addressed.
Saying any evil is necessary is losing your humanity.

Well, when you think about the concept of selfishness... some people get the feel goods from doing 'non-selfish' things.  Acts of 'kindness' and the likes are all products of being selfishness too.  People act on their self-interests.

Is it not your own desire to see X person happy when you do acts of 'non-selfish' to make it happen?
Is it not your own desire to 'make a difference' for others when you deliberately go out of your way to do something to get that result?
Or are you saying people can truly be some sort of twisted 'paragon of virtue', where they only do those things cause it is the 'right thing to do'?  Society and culture has changed over the centuries, what was right and what is right... it will continue to change with the passing of time and the acts of humanity, for better or worse.

At least that is my current theory on it.

EDIT: Selfishness is not so bad... it is what motivates people... to great acts of kindness.  For people to pursue the life ahead of them.  But, also for the great acts of jackassery.  It is not a black or white concept of 'good and evil'...  Greed has been touted as a sin for the past few centuries... hasn't it?

Where would humanity be without greed?

[Bauglir]

If a desire to inflate your ego motivates you to improve the lives of others at personal expense, is it selfishness? If it is, is it necessarily evil? Besides, while it's almost certainly a component of the motivation for doing so, but I'm not sure why I can't use identical reasoning to claim that people are innately good because they value the well-being of others as a factor in deciding their own self-worth. Claiming that everybody has some degree of selfishness, which must be evil, and therefore everybody is evil deep down... That doesn't really hold up. The best you can claim is that nobody is completely unselfish, which is a very different claim from, "Everybody is basically evil."

I strongly suspect you're attempting to justify a conclusion you already had, rather than describing reasoning that leads to it. Which is fine, in its own way, given that pretty much everybody does this, but it's important to keep track of what's what.

This philosophical derail contribution brought to you by the "I don't want to do more math" Foundation For Procrastination.

[RedKing]

There's also the fact that it is much easier for bigots and such to spew their opinions, and to a much wider audience. Instead of ranting about the damned [insert group here] at a bar, school, workplace, etc. to a handful of people, they can do it online to thousands. Essentially the vitriol is at more or less the same actual level, in terms of peoples' thoughts, but the social and technological environment is such that not only is it much easier to express extreme views without the risk of being physically confronted, but such expressions are actually encouraged by a substantial portion of society.

Well, and to conjoin that with something said earlier, the wonder of the Internet in allowing previously scattered subcultures like LGBT to find common community and support each other cuts both ways. Used to be, if you were a racist and there wasn't say, a local Klan chapter, you were pretty much on your own and you'd have to keep that shit under wraps (no pun intended). Now, you have sites like Stormfront, where racists all over the country (or indeed, world) can unite and create that self-reinforcing echo chamber.

Essentially, the Internet means that assholes can form communities too, and their behavior becomes self-reinforcing (*cough* 4chan *cough*).

[Neonivek]

There's also the fact that it is much easier for bigots and such to spew their opinions, and to a much wider audience. Instead of ranting about the damned [insert group here] at a bar, school, workplace, etc. to a handful of people, they can do it online to thousands. Essentially the vitriol is at more or less the same actual level, in terms of peoples' thoughts, but the social and technological environment is such that not only is it much easier to express extreme views without the risk of being physically confronted, but such expressions are actually encouraged by a substantial portion of society.

You know, it sounds crazy but I actually think that is a good thing.

Sure it means that the internet has a lot of crazy people, racists, and others that society is set up to look down upon. Yet it also gives them a forum where they themselves have a voice. Something that our society considers to be important but "Only if we agree with what is being said".

[kaijyuu]

Essentially, the Internet means that assholes can form communities too, and their behavior becomes self-reinforcing (*cough* 4chan *cough*).

These things don't exist in a vacuum, though. They're under scrutiny by society at large, and in time their faulty logic will crumble under the weight of criticism.

Echo chambers aren't impermeable.

[Loud Whispers]

Well, when you think about the concept of selfishness... some people get the feel goods from doing 'non-selfish' things.  Acts of 'kindness' and the likes are all products of being selfishness too.  People act on their self-interests.

Is it not your own desire to see X person happy when you do acts of 'non-selfish' to make it happen?
Is it not your own desire to 'make a difference' for others when you deliberately go out of your way to do something to get that result?
Or are you saying people can truly be some sort of twisted 'paragon of virtue', where they only do those things cause it is the 'right thing to do'?  Society and culture has changed over the centuries, what was right and what is right... it will continue to change with the passing of time and the acts of humanity, for better or worse.

Can you honestly say you have never given without wanting anything in return? Not even a thanks? Because selflessness is a virtue that is in no ways twisted. There is no better way to let ignorance thrive than to irk away from the right choices because they are the difficult choices.

EDIT: Selfishness is not so bad... it is what motivates people... to great acts of kindness.

Selfishness is the motivation as the whip is to the slave. Freedom from it is what leads to kindness.

Where would humanity be without greed?

No capitalism or communism, only a commonwealth.

Essentially, the Internet means that assholes can form communities too, and their behavior becomes self-reinforcing (*cough* 4chan *cough*).

4chan's more vocal areas are self destructive, not self-reinforcing. Not nearly everyone's an arsehole. Because they are people.

[Bauglir]

Echo chambers aren't impermeable.

I'm not sure of this. People are very good at dismissing opinions they don't agree with, and it's all but impossible to overcome that when they also feel like they have the weight of consensus on their side. And the internet is currently trending very heavily toward allowing everybody to set up their own, personal echo chambers. Many services even deliberately go out of their way to do this (see: Google, Facebook). The sum total of all human knowledge at their fingertips, most people gravitate toward the knowledge that's comfortable and familiar.