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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[SalmonGod]

This is one of those places too where I think real change ultimately has to come from within police departments; cops hold too much solidarity with each other to yield to anything but a higher power, and even then most mandates are enacted half-heartedly. They can hold all the state and federally-mandated sensitivity training they want, but until police departments stop teaching their own officers that their lives are more important than the lives of the people they serve (including the ones that might be guilty), or don't disrupt the BS-pseudo-special-forces-macho culture of police in this country, very little is every going to honestly change. I'm not saying self-policing is the best option. I just think it's the most realistic one. But that will take decades of cultural change from the way police think and act today.

The ONLY way that situation can be reduced is getting more people to actually show the police some respect. As things are, the police get shit on from every possible direction (seriously, going down the streets with your radio blaring "KILL THE PIGS! KILL ALL THE FUCKING PIGS!" is not a recipe for any kind of improvement), EXCEPT other cops. The result is that they see all non-cops as enemies, and that leads to an extremely tight US V THEM mentality.

I think you have your causalities reversed.

[Frumple]

... and that's not exactly going to happen unless the cops start giving the public reasons to. Preferably more (and more importantly, more visible) reasons to than not to.

Beyond that, "being shit on" doesn't excuse going out and fucking killing people, maiming innocents, violating huge swaths of the law (and getting away with it), etc., so forth, so on.

Police get ridiculous amounts of goddamn privileges (Hint: There's some of that bloody "respect") for what they do, and the ability and mandate to use more power than almost any civil position in the states. What many of them are doing with that is completely inexcusable, and the fact that the ones that aren't doing such are not stopping their fellows from doing that is just... yeah. The group in the position of power has a considerably greater responsibility in regards to action than the others involved in the equation. And for the last long damn while, the police, in general, in the states, have been failing that responsibility badly.

Seriously though. Any cop that starts displaying an "US V THEM" mentality needs to be fired, immediately. That -- policing their own goddamn people -- more than just about anything, is one of the biggest things the discontent are asking for at this point.

[Lord Shonus]

Not at all. I've got family on both sides of the corrections system (going back about sixty years, if you include parents passing things down), and the rampant POLICE VS CIVILIANS divide didn't really exist (except for blatant racism, that much is kind of a given in any historical context) until a large portion of the population decided that police were the scum of the earth, and should be treated as such (to the point where I personally know cops that have been beaten very badly for daring to tell someone that driving 90+ MPH in a school zone is a traffic violation) at all times. When yourisk being brutally murdered simply for doing your job, paranoia and a fortress mentality aren't simply impossible to prevent, they're the only thing keeping you alive. I've seen personally seen an attempted murderer get away (stabbing in broad daylight) because the cop in pursuit was dogpiled by almost everyone on the street for daring to chase "the poor innocent boy holding a knife." Solving problems is a two-way street and a "POLICE ARE ALWAYS EVIL!" attitude makes the problem worse, not better.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

They may not always be evil, but they exist within a system that rewards evil and punishes good, so it doesn't really matter.

[GavJ]

The ONLY way that situation can be reduced is getting more people to actually show the police some respect. As things are, the police get shit on from every possible direction (seriously, going down the streets with your radio blaring "KILL THE PIGS! KILL ALL THE FUCKING PIGS!" is not a recipe for any kind of improvement), EXCEPT other cops. The result is that they see all non-cops as enemies, and that leads to an extremely tight US V THEM mentality.

Cops get PAID to be calm and professional even if they aren't respected.
Civilians do NOT get paid and have no motivation whatsoever to provide unearned courtesy.

If you want to cut me a $30,000 check every year to be professional and polite toward cops even if they act like assholes, I might consider it. Until then, tough shit, I don't care if their feelings are hurt. They get paid to do a job and if they can't hold up their end of the bargain on that paycheck, they're welcome to quit.

If you aren't gonna pay me to respect you, then my respect is earned by actions instead. And the way to earn it is most definitely not by murdering unarmed innocents and then trying to cover it up and make excuses and retiring with a fat pension as punishment.

It is NOT an equal relationship, unless they're volunteers.

[Lord Shonus]

And the way to improve that system is to reduce the hostility that they have to face. If they know that they're probably going to come out of most routine traffic stops without injury, they're going to be less paranoid. Less paranoia means better relations with civilians, which leads to less CYA and wagon-circling. I don't deny that cops get out of hand, I've had to deal with it a few times myself. All I'm saying is that standing here and screaming "you're the problem, so change!" only makes things worse.


@GavJ Copsa get paid barely a living wage, to go out on the streets every single day knowing that there is a small but real chance that today's the day the're going to wind up beaten half-to-death in an alley, or bleeding out from a bullet wound, all in the name of keeping order in a society that by all signs virulently and actively hates them. Meanwhile, they're taking a lot of shit from the upper levels for "only" pulling 16 hour shifts dealing with whatever the pet crime theory of the day is.

[GavJ]

@GavJ Copsa get paid barely a living wage, to go out on the streets every single day knowing that there is a small but real chance that today's the day the're going to wind up beaten half-to-death in an alley, or bleeding out from a bullet wound

Right, and I get paid ZERO wage, knowing that there is a small but real chance that today's the day a cop is going to beat me half to death or gun me down in an alley, and leave me bleeding out, for no good reason. Then get a slap on the wrist and a paid vacation.

[Lagslayer]

All I'm saying is that standing here and screaming "you're the problem, so change!" only makes things worse.

+1

Unfortunately, most heated discussions are really just shouting matches. I submit to the idea that it is important to not only understand what your adversary is thinking, but also why they are thinking it, even if you don't agree with them. If you can't do that, then there isn't enough common ground to have any meaningful discussion.

[SalmonGod]

Not at all. I've got family on both sides of the corrections system (going back about sixty years, if you include parents passing things down), and the rampant POLICE VS CIVILIANS divide didn't really exist (except for blatant racism, that much is kind of a given in any historical context) until a large portion of the population decided that police were the scum of the earth, and should be treated as such (to the point where I personally know cops that have been beaten very badly for daring to tell someone that driving 90+ MPH in a school zone is a traffic violation) at all times. When yourisk being brutally murdered simply for doing your job, paranoia and a fortress mentality aren't simply impossible to prevent, they're the only thing keeping you alive. I've seen personally seen an attempted murderer get away (stabbing in broad daylight) because the cop in pursuit was dogpiled by almost everyone on the street for daring to chase "the poor innocent boy holding a knife." Solving problems is a two-way street and a "POLICE ARE ALWAYS EVIL!" attitude makes the problem worse, not better.

That judgment didn't happen spontaneously, though... there's been a solid progression over at least the last 30 years, initiated by the drug war, of the police as an institution evolving into a role that primarily serves interests detrimental to the public. 

Between incarceration quotas pushed by private prisons, harsh policies targeting minor substance violations, corporations literally paying the police to violate innocent people's rights, court ruling that the police don't have a duty to protect anyone, rising criminalization of poverty at the same time as wealth inequality is reaching all-time historical extremes, general bigotry both as a common element in police culture and in the laws they're tasked with executing, and many more factors that have over time become built into the institution of law enforcement and define what police officers represent for a citizen just trying to navigate their lives.

People didn't just decide that police were bad.  The powers that be turned the police into the enforcers of everything that makes people's lives bad.  Quite simply it really is Us vs Them.  If you want to show support for equality for minorities, you have to fight the police.  If you want privacy, you have to fight the police.  If you want to do something about the destruction of the planet, you have to fight the police.  If you want to speak out against wars for profit, you have to fight the police.  If you want to blow the whistle on some corruption or injustice that you've witnessed, you have to fight the police.  If you want to demand fair pay from your employer, you have to fight the police.  If you just want to survive day to day as a minority or a poor person, you have to fight the police.  And it's not the citizen population that instigated this bullshit.  This is the situation that is forced upon us by police following orders.

[GavJ]

Police ARE the problem.
But I don't expect police to change themselves, and I don't think yelling at them to do so is helpful, either.

I expect legislators to change police. For starters:
* Cameras on police.
* Civilian commissions in complete control or at least complete access to and oversight of investigations of police.


No yelling is required. Just drafting and signing.

[Lord Shonus]

Not at all. I've got family on both sides of the corrections system (going back about sixty years, if you include parents passing things down), and the rampant POLICE VS CIVILIANS divide didn't really exist (except for blatant racism, that much is kind of a given in any historical context) until a large portion of the population decided that police were the scum of the earth, and should be treated as such (to the point where I personally know cops that have been beaten very badly for daring to tell someone that driving 90+ MPH in a school zone is a traffic violation) at all times. When yourisk being brutally murdered simply for doing your job, paranoia and a fortress mentality aren't simply impossible to prevent, they're the only thing keeping you alive. I've seen personally seen an attempted murderer get away (stabbing in broad daylight) because the cop in pursuit was dogpiled by almost everyone on the street for daring to chase "the poor innocent boy holding a knife." Solving problems is a two-way street and a "POLICE ARE ALWAYS EVIL!" attitude makes the problem worse, not better.

People didn't just decide that police were bad.  The powers that be turned the police into the enforcers of everything that makes people's lives bad.  Quite simply it really is Us vs Them.  If you want to show support for equality for minorities, you have to fight the police.  If you want privacy, you have to fight the police.  If you want to do something about the destruction of the planet, you have to fight the police.  If you want to speak out against wars for profit, you have to fight the police.  If you want to blow the whistle on some corruption or injustice that you've witnessed, you have to fight the police.  If you want to demand fair pay from your employer, you have to fight the police.  If you just want to survive day to day as a minority or a poor person, you have to fight the police.  And it's not the citizen population that instigated this bullshit.  This is the situation that is forced upon us by police following orders.

Vietnam had a ton to do with it. Not just protest crackdowns, but the general anti-authoritarianism of the era instigated by the discontent with foreign policy in the area, the harassment of the peace movement, and similar. There's also the issue of "false racism", where someone already conditioned to expect discrimination mistakes a genuinely legitimate action for racial (or sexual, or trans-prejudece, etc.) discrimination. (The classic example of this is someone being pulled over with a high-ticket item visible in their car. They assume it's because they're [GROUP], and allow the resentment to simmer, but the cops were actually responding to a burglary call in that area and mistook the visible item for one of the stolen ones. That happened to my (hispanic) uncle three times (he's a mover, and often gets to keep things that clients don't want to bother moving, such as older stereos and TVs, and lives in a fairly high-crime area.)Having been repeatedly subjected to legitimate harassment and false arrest (by the police patrolling the rich neighborhoods, picked him up more than once for "loitering" at a bus stop), he assumed the worst.) Trying to pin any one cause on the problem is an exercise in futility, and bringing in the "big guns" of lawsuits and lawmakers doesn't work. The only thing that will work is integrating the police force into the community in a way that eliminates the fortress mentality they've developed. Honest "reality" cop shows (instead of crap like Cops where they're obviously being hardasses for the camera), cop dramas where the "heroes" don't break the rules every thirty seconds (Looking at you, SVU!) and outreach ride-alongs (issue community leaders basic body armor and put them in a patrol car with the officer as an observer. Not only would this help to keep the cop honest, having an outsider look at what they base their decisions and actions on would give both sides the data needed to avoid misunderstandings) would probably be a good start.


EDIT: Both those suggestions are also good ones. Police cameras are already in adoption, and oversight boards would do a lot of good if you can assure both police and non-police believe them to be neutral.

[nenjin]

*snip*

You realize you're essentially blaming the victims here, where we are all potential victims of police brutality?

I'll try to remember the next time a cop breaks the law while interacting with me, that he's not really angry at me, but "society" and "fuck da police" and "Vietnam."

As an institution, if police want respect they have to earn it. And they do, when they do their jobs according to the law. People love the police when they're protecting them, bringing criminals to the justice system. They do NOT love the police when they slay unarmed people to protect themselves.

Any cop that isn't willing to risk a punch, a kick, a bite or a bullet to be on the right side of the law shouldn't be a police officer. They lack the moral fiber to be the kind of officer our society deserves. And that's what's changed in recent years I believe. Cops are scared, and they do what scared people do with a gun in hand: shoot first, think later. And that fear has led them to commit many horrible crimes, like shooting people for no real probable cause, who posed them no real threat. It's been like a parade of bad war movies in recent years where jumpy rookies shoot the wrong fucking person.

If good cops want respect, they need to be harder on poor cops than even the public is. Apply some of that good old military discipline to themselves instead of to the public at large.

[GavJ]

Oh I forgot an important one on legislation:
* Forcing each jurisdiction to EITHER make it legal to lie to cops, OR make it illegal for a uniformed, identifiable cop to lie to civilians (carrying an equal charge as the reverse in that jurisdiction). Note that "uniformed and identifiable" does not include undercover agents.

[Ghills]

I think the 'war on drugs/illegal immigrants/etc' is a big part of the damage to police reputations and standing.   People were told the police were part of a military action.   The police started acting like they were part of the military. This caused a lot of trauma and damage. 

Police are civilians.  They are not soldiers.  They are not waging a war on the people who live nearby.  Soldiers in warzones are expected to, and need to, behave entirely differently from police investigating crimes.   And when the populace is told that police are soldiers, and are waging a war...we get the natural consequences of people drawing battle lines and taking sides.

The real problem is politicians who militarized civilians and our society because it gave them power and prestige.


There are also serious, unmistakable issues with how police are (not) trained, (not) supported or paid appropriately and (not) integrated into the communities they protect.  All the issues that the civil service has, plus dealing with criminals constantly, it's no surprise police behave the way they do.   But just because it's predictable doesn't mean it's right, good, or even tolerable. 

[Frumple]

They're not acting like soldiers, though. Well, maybe "acting", but from what I've picked up in discussion elsewhere, a lot of military policy and whatnot is... considerably more restrained than police policy has been. It's been kinda' interesting seeing vets shit on how the cops are acting, honestly.