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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 837241 times)

smirk

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #7995 on: August 13, 2014, 01:20:17 am »

A pretty good write-up of Michael Brown's death in St. Louis and its implications and connections to larger problems in US culture:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/america-is-not-for-black-people-1620169913

Relevant quotes from the article, spoilered for length:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Some days, I'm not sure if I should punch holes in the wall or just go dead inside.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #7996 on: August 13, 2014, 02:16:42 am »

Was just dropping by with updates on that...

There's been a No Fly Zone declared over Ferguson, to prevent news helicopters from covering protests

Anonymous has gotten involved

I've been super busy the last couple days and not able to keep up with things, but from what I've seen, there hasn't exactly been another riot... but there's been repeated instances of angry crowds gathering, at least one where they started throwing rocks at police who responded with rubber bullets, bean bag rounds, and tear gas, and there's a lot of hyper-militarized general police presence in the area now.

It seems witness accounts of the incident have pretty well solidifed in the media, and consistently claim that he was surrendering with his hands up when he was shot.  But there's no video evidence, so I sincerely doubt any witness statements will matter vs the official police account in court.  The compatibility of the official story with non-police witness accounts is already extremely far-fetched, so it's clear they're already banking on this.  My prediction is they're going to draw the court case out as long as possible, wait for public attention and outrage to wear out, hear everything out but only give any weight to the official story, and attempt to quietly dismiss the case a couple years from now based on the lack of any video evidence.  And it will probably work.  Or they could very well be stupid about this, make an obvious and short-lived mockery of the case in court, and then we'll see some serious riots.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 03:22:34 am by SalmonGod »
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GavJ

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #7997 on: August 13, 2014, 04:50:02 am »

In everybody's best interests to prevent things like this:

1) Put mandatory GoPro or similar cameras on every police officer's shoulder. This includes not only beat cops but also detectives, interrogations, everybody at crime scenes, anybody serving any warrant, etc.
2) Anybody has the right to request the videos of events relevant to them, like their own arrest or citation, their interrogations, searches of their property, etc., within some reasonable timeframe like between 1 and 4 weeks. Officers can also request personal copies of their own specific videos.
3) If no video can be produced on a valid demand, then...
3a) The relevant police department is issued a significant fine no matter what.
3b) The person who should have been taking that video -- their affidavits or testimony about any events that should have been recorded is now inadmissible.
3c) Willfully missing or tampered video (by anybody, including civilians) could carry additional criminal tampering charges. Probably rare to prove cause you'd have to be a bit dumb usually, but for example, video of an officer reaching up and turning off the camera during an interrogation.
3d) Sometimes other special consequences, like evidence found by somebody not in compliance during a warranted search being inadmissible as well, etc.

This has huge cost savings for the taxpayers by shaving days off of trials routinely or making them unnecessary entirely (whether guilty or innocent!), makes justice itself more likely, improves public opinion and respect for officers, and deters brutality in the first place -- both by and against officers. Both the public and police are safer, richer, and more fairly treated with simple accountability.



Edit: I would consider waiving all of this for
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 05:00:22 am by GavJ »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #7998 on: August 13, 2014, 05:10:00 am »

There's been a No Fly Zone declared over Ferguson, to prevent news helicopters from covering protests
There's also vines of police officers trying to stop people from filming them. Even the staunchest defender of the police must question what the hell is going on.

Anonymous has gotten involved
Quote
The news: Internet "hacktivist" collective Anonymous has released a statement on the Michael Brown shooting.
They're dead, didn't get involved in these politics and didn't use social media. This is just some guy with microsoft sam.

It seems witness accounts of the incident have pretty well solidifed in the media, and consistently claim that he was surrendering with his hands up when he was shot.
Guardian got a hold of Dorian who was a friend of Michael or something, he says a whole lot which is about just as damning to the police as shooting someone surrendering. If it'd be a war crime if they were soldiers it warrants attention.

In regards to the riots themselves, destroying your own community is a hilariously stupid way to go about effecting anything useful.

GlyphGryph

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #7999 on: August 13, 2014, 08:08:31 am »

In regards to the riots themselves, destroying your own community is a hilariously stupid way to go about effecting anything useful.
One building was burned, and that seems to be about it. It seems that 99% of the activity going on is definitely "protest" rather than "riot"... so far. Which means there's still a good chance of the police not doing jack shit about this guy until rioting DOES become widespread - the police are afraid of riots, but they know how to suppress protests just fine. As MLK said, "A riot is the language of the unheard." There's national media attention right now, but we'll see if that results in anyone actually listening. If not, I suspect there might be an actual riot, instead of sparse flareups of idiocy, but violence and destruction is what you get when the authorities will notice nothing else.

Of course, with Ferguson police quoted as saying "Bring it on, you motherfucking animals, bring it on", and the mayor reneging on his promise to release the name of the officer, and the policesoldiers launching gas canisters at people's homes and forcing news media out of the area at gunpoint (military-grade gunpoint), I have a suspicion they aren't particularly interested in listening. Best bet might be if some greater city or state authority just outright disbands the fuckers.
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nenjin

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8000 on: August 13, 2014, 10:40:45 am »

It's standard in a lot of police cruisers to have dashboard cams, at the very least. It's there for our protection, and theirs.

So when I hear a police department has no dash or personal cams, in this day and age, it leads me to believe there's a reason for it.

Frankly, with our history of law enforcement in this country, it should be law that all law enforcement officers: police, FBI, DEA, ATF... have personal cams.
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smirk

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8001 on: August 13, 2014, 11:49:32 am »

From the third article that SalmonGod posted:
Quote
Jackson, the Ferguson police chief, said there’s no video footage of the shooting from the apartment complex or from any police dashboard cameras or body-worn cameras that the department recently bought but has not yet put to use.
Sounds like they were doing the bare minimum to meet modern standards while still dragging their feet so it wouldn't crimp their style.

The 'rioting and violence' seems to have been a lot quieter than it could have been, really. Social media makes it easier to organize and be heard without resorting to traditional mob tactics. Remains to be seen how effective it ultimately is, but it's looking positive so far.

I wonder if Anonymous is going to try digging up the name of the officer involved? Seems like something they'd do.

Also,
Of course, with Ferguson police quoted as saying "Bring it on, you motherfucking animals, bring it on",
Do you have a source for that quote? I can't find anything but my search skills probably aren't the best at the moment.
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When i think of toady i think of a toad hopping arround on a keyboard
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SalmonGod

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8002 on: August 13, 2014, 12:17:43 pm »

\
Quote
The news: Internet "hacktivist" collective Anonymous has released a statement on the Michael Brown shooting.
They're dead, didn't get involved in these politics and didn't use social media. This is just some guy with microsoft sam.\\

Anonymous is sort of a vague entity, and somebody majorly tampered with two of the city's websites before "anonymous" put out that statement.  So I think I have to call you wrong on that one.  What makes you say that Anonymous is dead, anyway?


In regards to the riots themselves, destroying your own community is a hilariously stupid way to go about effecting anything useful.
One building was burned, and that seems to be about it. It seems that 99% of the activity going on is definitely "protest" rather than "riot"... so far. Which means there's still a good chance of the police not doing jack shit about this guy until rioting DOES become widespread - the police are afraid of riots, but they know how to suppress protests just fine. As MLK said, "A riot is the language of the unheard." There's national media attention right now, but we'll see if that results in anyone actually listening. If not, I suspect there might be an actual riot, instead of sparse flareups of idiocy, but violence and destruction is what you get when the authorities will notice nothing else.

This.  I can understand why rioting would seem immature and pointless, but I think it has its place.  That doesn't make it a pure and wholesome activity which the participants only do after much thought into the meaning and repurcussions, or that it's always proper and that there are never better options.  But sometimes it is the only means a population has by which to make the statement "We're here.  Fucking notice us.  Take us seriously.  We're ready to fight if you don't."  And it's looked to me like there is a history of rioting or the clear threat of rioting being a necessary element to the prosecution of an officer.


I wonder if Anonymous is going to try digging up the name of the officer involved? Seems like something they'd do.

I'm sure they will.  Their primary threat in that video was that they'd dig up personal information on the entire Ferguson PD and release it to the public if their demands weren't met.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8003 on: August 13, 2014, 01:06:53 pm »

Of course, with Ferguson police quoted as saying "Bring it on, you motherfucking animals, bring it on",
Do you have a source for that quote? I can't find anything but my search skills probably aren't the best at the moment.

It was literally during a newscast from on the ground, I forget what channel, one of the police officers was shouting it and the others were cheering him on. Looking it up, looks like it was from a CNN video.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/12/michael-brown-protests_n_5672163.html

"Bring it, all you fucking animals, bring it, I don't give a fuck!" about 20 seconds into the video, pretty much directly to the cameraman.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8004 on: August 13, 2014, 01:45:15 pm »

I've only managed to read about halfway through it, but now seems like the best possible time to share it.

It's Time We Treat Police Brutality as a National Crisis

Edit:

Ok... so that link doesn't really say much.  But I agree with the call.  I think the police and justice system are unraveling the social fabric and stability of the country.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 01:59:57 pm by SalmonGod »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8005 on: August 13, 2014, 04:31:37 pm »

One building was burned, and that seems to be about it. It seems that 99% of the activity going on is definitely "protest" rather than "riot"... so far. Which means there's still a good chance of the police not doing jack shit about this guy until rioting DOES become widespread - the police are afraid of riots, but they know how to suppress protests just fine. As MLK said, "A riot is the language of the unheard." There's national media attention right now, but we'll see if that results in anyone actually listening. If not, I suspect there might be an actual riot, instead of sparse flareups of idiocy, but violence and destruction is what you get when the authorities will notice nothing else.
If it's a language of the unheard it's a language no one understands because all it does is give the police the narrative to increase their power and allow any legitimacy in your message be swept under looters.
A liquor store was looted, a QuikTrip set on fire, a tire and rim  shop was looted, the local Wal-Mart looted, a Walgreen's looted, the K-Mart Pawn shops looted, some cars, a gas station was set on fire (some rioters had death wishes?) and there was firefights between police and rioters which has resulted in one hospitalized. That's only from the things I know of myself. If anything can be learned from the London riots is that violence against yourself is by nature self destructive and does not even make your message heard as the media WILL solely focus on the violence to exclusion of all else.

Of course, with Ferguson police quoted as saying "Bring it on, you motherfucking animals, bring it on", and the mayor reneging on his promise to release the name of the officer, and the policesoldiers launching gas canisters at people's homes and forcing news media out of the area at gunpoint (military-grade gunpoint), I have a suspicion they aren't particularly interested in listening. Best bet might be if some greater city or state authority just outright disbands the fuckers.
I don't think the Mayor releasing the name of the officer is a good idea, whether it be to calm intense riot-passions or to protect an individual before a proper investigation has been conducted. Either the officer is innocent or the officer is guilty, either way releasing the details runs the risk of starting a mob hunt and Lions defend their own. By military grade weapons, what do you mean? And in the end chances are you're not going to get the police to listen if the police are in on it, but by going around rioting you're mainly just alienating the people that matter and that's other people. Get popular support and politicians have to listen, and in the end change is effected.
Disbanding the police altogether is also an awful idea. Definitely scale down on the amount of force they have available.

Anonymous is sort of a vague entity, and somebody majorly tampered with two of the city's websites before "anonymous" put out that statement.  So I think I have to call you wrong on that one.  What makes you say that Anonymous is dead, anyway?
Anonymous is a vague entity because it is not an entity, there was nothing distinct about them. In popular consciousness the anonymous "hacktivists" all quit, got doxxed, sent to jail or are probably working for the governments of the USA and UK. The first flag that points to you being rused is that the moment large amounts of MS Sam messages started appearing declaring that "Anonymous is against David Cameron putting cameras in televisions" or "Anonymous is for justice for jesus" and more specifically "Anonymous is against whoever I don't like," it stopped being used altogether almost immediately and by god, they're actually using hashtags. So you know whoever's made this is just imitating any other of the AnonOps on youtube. Hey, who knows. Maybe there is a hacktivist out there bricking people's emails, but they're not the super 1337 haxl0rds who know linux and ate sony for breakfast. The whole thing doesn't even read like something Anons would have done, old Anonops are too offensive for me to transcribe, this one seems more like an occupy wallstreet rally as written by someone on the bottom of the privilege pyramid. The intro itself is probably the most damning thing as it's just lifted from a year old youtube vid meant to act as a template for introing other "Anonymous" vids.

This.  I can understand why rioting would seem immature and pointless, but I think it has its place.  That doesn't make it a pure and wholesome activity which the participants only do after much thought into the meaning and repurcussions, or that it's always proper and that there are never better options.  But sometimes it is the only means a population has by which to make the statement "We're here.  Fucking notice us.  Take us seriously.  We're ready to fight if you don't."  And it's looked to me like there is a history of rioting or the clear threat of rioting being a necessary element to the prosecution of an officer.
People will notice the crowd, notice the people looting and surmise that the rally and the riot are one and the same. Likewise as has been brought up every time some unfortunate American tries convincing anyone that their private armoury could challenge the American state, no one can challenge the American state. Gandhi's the only way to go, he didn't just choose peaceful protesting because it was the moral thing to do he was also pragmatic about it, having served alongside the British army he realized a violent independence movement would have been dashed across the force of a superior army, and the American police alone are better equipped than some nations' armies. Have you seen American "rescue" vehicles? That is not a fight you will win. One minute you're there protesting, the next you're there rioting and before long you're on the ground. The difference between the outrage of Michael Brown's shooting and whoever else it was that just got shot by police in the riots is that the former was unarmed and the latter was, even if we assume the latter attacked the police over the former the former has raised the issue of police brutality onto a national level of awareness whilst the latter merely jeopardizes any chance of anything constructive being brought out from this.

This interview is relevant. It's from some guy called Darcus Howe talking about the London riots, or more specifically not talking about the London riots. He did his best to talk about the plight of youths and the shady circumstances of Duggan's death and these sort of people were swept aside because people only remember the wankers looting stores for luxury items who knew nothing of the protests and only heard on facebook and twitter that rioting time had begun.

And now the posterchild of the Ferguson riots won't be Michael Brown, it'll be this twat:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

GlyphGryph

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8006 on: August 13, 2014, 04:59:12 pm »

Disbanding police forces that are really been has been shown to be an incredibly effective strategy for change. Other towns and cities have had success doing so.  There are usually plenty of willing volunteers you can start over with, and you can even rehire a few individuals from the old force (not too many). If pervasive systemic problems have sunk deep, its worth it, although obviously there will end up being some growing pains for the fledgling force, but sometimes a clean start really is thebest option. Its drastic, but if less drastic measures have failed (and they have, time and again) or seem unlikely (they do here), its not a bad option as far as things go.

Get popular support and politicians have to listen, and in the end change is effected.
And what do you do when that doesn't work?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 05:08:11 pm by GlyphGryph »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8007 on: August 13, 2014, 05:57:13 pm »

Rioting isn't about winning the PR war, or telling authorities that you can win in a fight against them.

First, it's personal therapy, and nothing to do with anger.  It's a way of breaking the learned helplessness of someone who has been ingrained with the feeling that their very existence is worthless and criminal.  It re-instates a sense of personal empowerment - the ability to do something with one's own hands.  Even if that something is not a good thing, it can be the spiritual breath of life that leads to more positive things in the future.   May not work out for those that get arrested, but not everybody does.

Second, the message.  It's not supposed to communicate legitimacy, or the ability to win a fight.  It's supposed to communicate desperation.  It says "We're not granted a place in your order, so we're going to break down your order."  It spreads injustice and untenable living conditions to everyone.  Someone who wouldn't otherwise care about the execution of an innocent black person will care if he can expect his car to be set on fire every time it happens.

And once again allow me to extra-super-stress, I'm not saying that in any specific case, including this one, that it's an overall good or bad thing.  That it's always a correct response.  That the people engaged in rioting are putting much thought into their actions.  I'm not saying any of those things.  I'm only saying that it's not always an entirely negative thing, and that it can even make sense strategically for a large group of people in a situation where they feel truly alienated and hopeless.  Whether that's the case for Ferguson, I don't know.  Prior to this, my predictions about riots haven't been hopeful ones.  They've been strictly statements about what I expect to happen.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

smirk

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8008 on: August 13, 2014, 06:07:07 pm »

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When i think of toady i think of a toad hopping arround on a keyboard
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SalmonGod

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8009 on: August 13, 2014, 06:18:26 pm »

A bit more about Anonymous' involvement.

As far as I understand, Anonymous has never been defined by a core membership.  I see it as more just a label adopted by targeted actions carried out by something more akin to stand alone complex, loosely organized and memetic in nature.  A phenomenon more than a group of people.  So I'll go ahead and continue to use the name.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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