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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 838423 times)

Lord Shonus

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7485 on: June 30, 2014, 10:14:00 pm »

Quite importantly, the religious objection both in the case in question and the JW case you mentioned were well-established objections from well-established and well-known religious groups. IIRC, the courts have the ability to dismiss religious objections as false if the plaintiff cannot support that it really is against his religion. There will be very few cases where laws clash with truly solid claims of that nature, and the nastiest of those battles (Gay Rights) is already being fought and lost by those same groups.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7486 on: June 30, 2014, 10:45:16 pm »

I definitely agree it opens up a minefield. But considering anyone who's been following the court expected a 5-4 ruling with these exact justices, it could have been a lot worse. It might still get worse, but this is honestly the best we could have asked for considering the bent of the court. It's another step towards a pretty crappy future, but it could have been a giant leap.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7487 on: July 01, 2014, 12:34:40 am »

guys

i just realized

this ruling means a quaker businessman can just stop paying taxes because the taxes fund the military.

or that the courts can rule you can't buy bacon with the money your employer pays you

wow check out my slow response
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Vector

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7488 on: July 01, 2014, 01:06:13 am »

No, they specifically bar things like transfusions and whatnot. This is basically contraceptives-specific.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7489 on: July 01, 2014, 01:08:39 am »

that might be why i thought of that about a day after i read the article about it.

apparently data retention is not a thing that occurs to me
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Sheb

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7490 on: July 01, 2014, 01:50:42 am »

I'll need to look into more details, but even if this ruling is contraception-specific, it's easy to imagine the court being an ass again on the same reasoning.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7491 on: July 01, 2014, 03:14:32 am »

5. Everyone knows that primates and birds, and many marsupials, reptiles, rodents, and other mammals prefer to play Handegg, "The Football For Things With Thumbs and Souls". (Unless, of course, they're French birds, marsupials, etc.).
Ha


Anyway, a good primer on the decision here.
Good link!
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SalmonGod

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7492 on: July 01, 2014, 06:32:51 am »

No, they specifically bar things like transfusions and whatnot. This is basically contraceptives-specific.

Which makes it feel to me like pure discrimination no matter how I look at it... "We won't allow denial of medical coverage on religious grounds, except in this one specific case that only affects one group of people."
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Sheb

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7493 on: July 01, 2014, 06:40:11 am »

Well, since Obama already gave up on the contraceptive mandate for religious non-profits (so church-run schools and hospital and the like), it's hard to argue that non-profits corporations don't have to provide some kinds of contraceptive care while for-profits corporations do.

However, there is no precedent of non-profit corporations allowed to refuse to provide transfusions for example.
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palsch

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7494 on: July 01, 2014, 06:51:21 am »

IIRC, the courts have the ability to dismiss religious objections as false if the plaintiff cannot support that it really is against his religion. There will be very few cases where laws clash with truly solid claims of that nature, and the nastiest of those battles (Gay Rights) is already being fought and lost by those same groups.

Not under the reasoning of this case. It only requires that a belief be sincere, not reasonable or historically held. In this case Hobby Lobby adopted this belief only to fight this court battle against the ACA, previously offering these exact contraceptives under their insurance. It was still viewed as a sincere and valid belief.

And frankly no-one on the court or outside it believes that courts should be in the position of judging which beliefs are valid or sincere. Quoting Ginsburg (dissenting);
Quote
Hobby Lobby and Conestoga surely do not stand alone as commercial enterprises seeking exemptions from generally applicable laws on the basis of their religious beliefs. ... Would RFRA require exemptions in cases of this ilk? And if not, how does the Court divine which religious beliefs are worthy of accommodation, and which are not? Isn’t the Court disarmed from making such a judgment given its recognition that “courts must not presume to determine … the plausibility of a religious claim”?

Would the exemption the Court holds RFRA demands for employers with religiously grounded objections to the use of certain contraceptives extend to employers with religiously grounded objections to blood transfusions (Jehovah’s Witnesses); antidepressants (Scientologists); medications derived from pigs, including anesthesia, intravenous fluids, and pills coated with gelatin (certain Muslims, Jews, and Hindus); and vaccinations (Christian Scientists, among others)? According to counsel for Hobby Lobby, “each one of these cases … would have to be evaluated on its own … apply[ing] the compelling interest-least restrictive alternative test.” Not much help there for the lower courts bound by today’s decision.
...
There is an overriding interest, I believe, in keeping the courts “out of the business of evaluating the relative merits of differing religious claims,” United States v. Lee (Stevens, J., concurring in judgment), or the sincerity with which an asserted religious belief is held. Indeed, approving some religious claims while deeming others unworthy of accommodation could be “perceived as favoring one religion over another,” the very “risk the Establishment Clause was designed to preclude.” The Court, I fear, has ventured into a minefield, by its immoderate reading of RFRA. I would confine religious exemptions under that Act to organizations formed “for a religious purpose,” “engage[d] primarily in carrying out that religious purpose,” and not “engaged … substantially in the exchange of goods or services for money beyond nominal amounts.”
AMost notably the judgement of when something is incompatible with their beliefs is left entirely to the challenger. This most definitely does have implications for future gay rights cases, notably those about anti-gay discrimination by companies. As they point out at the end of the argument, the true limiting factor in this case comes from Kennedy, not the majority ruling.


No, they specifically bar things like transfusions and whatnot. This is basically contraceptives-specific.
They state that they are not covered by this ruling, not that they wouldn't find exemptions. The quote from the majority;
Quote
HHS and the principal dissent argue that a ruling in favor of the objecting parties in these cases will lead to a flood of religious objections regarding a wide variety of medical procedures and drugs, such as vaccinations and blood transfusions, but HHS has made no effort to substantiate this prediction. HHS points to no evidence that insurance plans in existence prior to the enactment of ACA excluded coverage for such items. Nor has HHS provided evidence that any significant number of employers sought exemption, on religious grounds, from any of ACA’s coverage requirements other than the contraceptive mandate….

In any event, our decision in these cases is concerned solely with the contraceptive mandate. Our decision should not be understood to hold that an insurance-coverage mandate must necessarily fall if it conflicts with an employer’s religious beliefs. Other coverage requirements, such as immunizations, may be supported by different interests (for example, the need to combat the spread of infectious diseases) and may involve different arguments about the least restrictive means of providing them.
Emphasis mine. That is, the floodgates aren't open yet so must not exist. And other government interests might be met with other least restrictive means. That is, the court might not be able to come up with a less restrictive way of achieving the same goal. That's the reason they struck this one down (again, see Kennedy's concurrence).
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7495 on: July 01, 2014, 06:52:46 am »

Well, since Obama already gave up on the contraceptive mandate for religious non-profits (so church-run schools and hospital and the like), it's hard to argue that non-profits corporations don't have to provide some kinds of contraceptive care while for-profits corporations do.

However, there is no precedent of non-profit corporations allowed to refuse to provide transfusions for example.

Right. Non-profits can deny contraception on religious grounds whether or not they are specifically religious non-profits (the US court system cannot apply judicial scrutiny to religious beliefs, only take them for granted and run with them). Given that, there is no reason that a for-profit could not also have religious beliefs (again, we are not asking whether or not it is consistent with one's religion to even value profit; that is not the Court's job), and we must extend the same protections of religious beliefs to for-profits as to non-profits.
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Sheb

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7496 on: July 01, 2014, 07:19:15 am »

So yeah, basically a strategic mistake from Obama for letting non-profit avoid the contraceptive mandates. However, I doubt he'll make the same mistake twice.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7497 on: July 01, 2014, 08:23:35 am »

Also, it should be clarified, despite how some people are casting it, this is NOT an anticontraceptive ruling, its an antiabortion ruling.

Remember that right wing strategists have decided they have lost the fight against gay marriage and all the memos they have been sending are about refocusing on taking down abortion, and then you will understand why this case was brought at all.

THAT is why I dont think its going to be the slippery slope people think it is. This is a volley in the war on abortion, not in the war of letting the religious do whatever they want.

Contraceptives that cant cause "abortion" still need to be provided.
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GavJ

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7498 on: July 01, 2014, 12:05:08 pm »

Quote
Contraceptives that cant cause "abortion" still need to be provided.
This is not only not true, but it's a contradiction of terms. Abortions and contraceptives are mutually exclusive. There is no such thing and never can be such a thing as a contraceptive that causes abortion, because contraceptive means preventing conception.

ALL of the contraceptive methods affected by the ruling are indeed contraception, and have nothing to do with abortions at all. None of them are designed to even work if implantation has already occurred. They prevent conception, that's what they do. Thus, they are not abortificants.

The line drawn between those contraceptives affected and not affected makes no sense and only further contributes to the ridiculousness of the ruling.



By the way, if you DO want a chemical actual abortificant (not contraceptive), a 5 minute walk outside on a bike trail or along any roadside ditch will usually furnish you with a dozen different abortificant plant species in the United States. Which again makes this that much sillier again.
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Bauglir

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7499 on: July 01, 2014, 12:14:22 pm »

Conception is synonymous with fertilization, not implantation, and I think the relevant things interfere in between the two. Of course, given that, calling something a contraceptive that doesn't prevent conception seems silly from a semantic perspective, but even so I don't think it's an argument that you can win by insisting on any particular terminology. I'm fairly confident that there's little to no confusion arising from the wording. I don't think it's a sensible line to draw, either, but here we are.
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