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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Also, why Iroquois? It's not like there's significant amounts of them left.

Perhaps more importantly, the ones who are left would probably object.

Upstate New York has been narrowly Democratic over most past election cycles. The Republicans can win there, but Upstate is not particularly receptive to the Religious-Populist Conservative alliance the Republicans are currently operating under. You'd need more of the "I care more about allowing corporate malfeasance than keeping them gays underfoot" Republican to be successful there.

[Frumple]

I'll admit, I don't actually care enough about the demographics of New York to have identified what sort of population layout it was running. 4-6 million would put it about at the midway point in population rankings, for what that's worth.

More curious about the question itself, though. Do the upstate new york folks actually want to split off?

[Owlbread]

Perhaps more importantly, the ones who are left would probably object.

If it was my show I would not call it Iroquois if the tribe rejected it. It was preserving their memory and marking their land that I had in mind. Perhaps we should ask the remaining Missouria out in Oklahoma what they think of their lost homeland being called Missouri. Perhaps they would prefer it to be called Niuachi.

Upstate New York has been narrowly Democratic over most past election cycles. The Republicans can win there, but Upstate is not particularly receptive to the Religious-Populist Conservative alliance the Republicans are currently operating under. You'd need more of the "I care more about allowing corporate malfeasance than keeping them gays underfoot" Republican to be successful there.

I know that Upstate New York is a bit of a hotspot for gun-control debate, given that there's more traditional "gun owner" types out there compared with New York City and they resent having city laws foisted on them. I've seen a few pro-NRA, anti-gun control demonstrations there.

I'll admit, I don't actually care enough about the demographics of New York to have identified what sort of population layout it was running. 4-6 million would put it about at the midway point in population rankings, for what that's worth.

More curious about the question itself, though. Do the upstate new york folks actually want to split off?

I don't know if there's ever been a poll but there is a movement. Practically every Upstater I've read comments from or heard has said something along those lines, or expressed great discontent at being united with New York City.

I sympathise greatly with Upstate New Yorkers given that I am from Perthshire. If I ever tell anyone in Scotland that I am from Perthshire, they would then introduce me to someone else as being "from Perth". This irritates me to no end.

[mainiac]

I don't know if there's ever been a poll but there is a movement. Practically every Upstater I've read comments from or heard has said something along those lines, or expressed great discontent at being united with New York City.

Clearly you've never been to Ithaca.

[Descan]

Let's be fair here, Conservatism is more about the whole "Small government, interactions between people are better at solving issues that top-down government solutions [i.e charity and free market vs welfare], traditions bind us into a cohesive whole to better confront our problems, 200 years of [American/Canadian] history have proven our ancestors knew what they were talking about" instead of "let the big wigs run rampant and stone the gays!".

Of course, that's the "communism is good in theory!" version of conservatism, and even then, half of that is stuff that doesn't really work, and the other half is opinion or half-truths/history white-washing. I can't think of a single conservative in Canada besides Hugh Segal who could fit that bill [an admitted "Red Tory" Senator (Think "House of Lords" only without the bishops)], and I can't think of a single American Republican/Conservative besides Ron Paul who'd fit the same bill. And... Well, Ronny has some skeletons.

If a conservative GOP candidate, either presidential or governor, were to run in Upstate New York (and I mean the theoretical conservative, not the experimental conservative) I think they could stand a good chance of winning.

[Owlbread]

Clearly you've never been to Ithaca.

I have never been to Ithaca. Is it a commuter city for New York City?

[Culise]

I'll admit, I don't actually care enough about the demographics of New York to have identified what sort of population layout it was running. 4-6 million would put it about at the midway point in population rankings, for what that's worth.

More curious about the question itself, though. Do the upstate new york folks actually want to split off?

Not so much that; they'd much rather split New York City off.

It's one of those half-mock, half-serious state divides; like east Washington versus the coast, NoVa against the rest of Virginia, North California against South, the Twin Cities against rural Minnesota, or even Yoopers against the trolls.  It's largely yet another manifestation of the urban/rural split that characterizes many states; both in the sense of those that comprise the US and those that are nations unto themselves, which is itself a subset of simple economic divides (such as that between Pittsburg and Philadelphia in Pennsylvania - it's actually interesting to see how that state is characterized).

If a conservative GOP candidate, either presidential or governor, were to run in Upstate New York (and I mean the theoretical conservative, not the experimental conservative) I think they could stand a good chance of winning.

Oh, yes, definitely.  Even in the last presidential election, Romney took quite a few counties and, by extension, congressional districts in New York.  Since New York is a winner-take-all state as far as the electoral votes are concerned (as are most states), that didn't express itself on the national scale. 

EDIT:

I have never been to Ithaca. Is it a commuter city for New York City?

It's a significant urban center in central New York state, closer to Syracuse and Rochester, and probably around halfway between Buffalo and the City, give or take fifty or so miles.  As a college town, it's ridiculously liberal for its location. 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Let's be fair here, Conservatism is more about the whole "Small government, interactions between people are better at solving issues that top-down government solutions [i.e charity and free market vs welfare], traditions bind us into a cohesive whole to better confront our problems, 200 years of [American/Canadian] history have proven our ancestors knew what they were talking about" instead of "let the big wigs run rampant and stone the gays!".

I disagree entirely. All of that stuff is essentially a smoke screen. With all they want to control people's lives and support certain kinds of government solutions (military and social security), you can't really tell me the Conservatives believe in small government. In fact, the whole small/big government dichotomy is total sophomoric bullshit that we should not be teaching as polisci.

Conservatism comes from several directions, but it essentially boils down to stepping on the necks of the have-nots, be that economically or socially. They have no sympathy for anybody else, so nor should we have such a weak handed response to that. Cooperative views towards conservatism just gets us right-wing policies that only sound reasonable.

[Lord Shonus]

If "Conservatism" was purely a smoke screen, then the movement would have died a permanent death decades ago. The entire reason that it remains a strong political movement is that so many small business owners, independent farmers, and other middle class people hold exactly the views you're shitting on, and the ultra-rich have seized on that as rhetoric to entice that powerful demographic to supporting the bigwig's domination.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

If "Conservatism" was purely a smoke screen, then the movement would have died a permanent death decades ago.

I didn't say it was purely a smoke screen. I said it was mostly a smoke screen. There's a certain sense of self-deception in conservatism, where one extensively uses code to be socially acceptable. Nobody is going to say that they support "keeping the blacks and the gays in their place, at the bottom of society", but that's what they really think, so they'll say things like "supporting traditional marriage" or "ending social services fraud". It does not change the reality of the situation.

The entire reason that it remains a strong political movement is that so many small business owners, independent farmers, and other middle class people hold exactly the views you're shitting on, and the ultra-rich have seized on that as rhetoric to entice that powerful demographic to supporting the bigwig's domination.

Their views deserve to be shat upon. It's a sick and twisted way to run a society. And the middle class isn't made up of small business owners and independent farmers. These people barely still exist, let alone make up an entire class.

I'm tired of there being no progress due to weakling liberal syndrome. It's time for the left to get some fucking backbone.

[Frumple]

And suddenly MSH is spouting words I regularly hear in the middle of bigotstan north florida. If fucking backbones lead to that, I'm not quite sure I'm ready to begin fornicating with spines.

[stabbymcstabstab]

or even Yoopers against the trolls.

DOWN WITH MICHIGAN! UP WITH SUPERIOR! NO MORE POTHOLES! ALL FUNDING SHALL GO TO REPAVING THE ROADS EVERY SPRING FUNDED THE SALES OF RUBBER FROM THE NEVER ENDING POPPED TIRES!

I wished we had enough people to form our own state, but no lives up here because their houses sink into the swamp that makes up 90% of the land, the freeze to death from our winter, die from heatstroke in the summer, drown in a lake, or pop all their tires in road that the state does pay to fix.

[SalmonGod]

I halfway agree with MSH.  I think that what he describes is a majority of conservatism.  Certainly not all of it.  I think there are plenty of people who get suckered in by the coded language or are fed hateful beliefs through twisting of religious dogma that's hard to let go of through strength or weakness, but aren't really hateful people.  But there's little doubt in my mind that all the power in the movement is played by authoritarians, bigots, and zealots.

But what do you do about it?  Yeah, the left needs to toughen up and quit dancing around sensibilities.  I absolutely agree.  But by what means?  To what end?  You can't just erase half the political spectrum from the planet (especially when they're the more naturally violent half) and you can't negotiate compromise or cooperation by telling them they're vile.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We're the future, and to some extent we're the majority. I'm convinced the right, or at least the insane right, can be indefinitely contained with the correct application of effective politics and democratic reform. Once that's done cooperating with more center-minded people is a good idea, but for now it should be a goal to claim the center and hold it, rather than try to be bipartisan.

There's a lot in presentation. The Right, for example, has had a pretty good hold on the concept of manliness for some time now. Men don't want to appear unmanly, so they tend to support the right more often. You'll note how that has absolutely nothing to do with what they actually believe in politically or morally. I'm not saying that bleeding heart flower children need to be expunged, but they cannot be solely representative of the left, like they have been. It turns off people who would otherwise be helpful.

[LordSlowpoke]

you're the future?

wow m8 are you gonna found the lcs that's the most fucking selfish thing to say i can imagine right now

i'm siding with frump here