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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[GlyphGryph]

His family have been in that land since before the BML existed. His son was perfectly within his rights to film the officers. I haven't seen you excuse the police assaulting the protestors yet, so there's that. This isn't a sheriff coming over or something, this is an army. Their family have been on that land for 150 years, and are unlikely to move.

I'm pretty sure how long you're family has been some where has exactly zero impact on what will happen when you don't pay your rent for 20 years.

Honestly, the Fed response is absolutely stupid though. The Feds being utterly stupid over enforcing the law is a pretty common if terrible fact. It's no Waco, and it's clear the guy is a crook complaining about the fact that he isn't getting away with it anymore, but the Fed response is still hilariously stupid.

Why don't they just arrest the guy for contempt of court or whatever happens when you refuse to do things you're legally required to do as part of a court case?

That part IS similar to Waco, where they could have easily arrested the guy but decided to go gung-ho show-of-force time instead.

Maniac, do you have any idea why they decided to do it this way instead of just arresting the guy?

[Loud Whispers]

I find the hardest part about talking about American anything is that people have already made up their minds before you've finished talking.

His family have been in that land since before the BML existed. His son was perfectly within his rights to film the officers. I haven't seen you excuse the police assaulting the protestors yet, so there's that. This isn't a sheriff coming over or something, this is an army. Their family have been on that land for 150 years, and are unlikely to move.

I'm pretty sure how long you're family has been some where has exactly zero impact on what will happen when you don't pay your rent for 20 years.

Indeed. I'm not convinced either way on who owns that land. My protests are mainly about the hypocrisy of them kicking out this man whilst simultaneously allowing big corporations to fuck the tortoises up, and the sheer excessive scale of force used and the blatant miscarriage of such apparently disposable rights as freedom of expression.

[Chaoswizkid]

Mainiac, it would probably help if you posted links supporting your arguments when you made them,

You mean like this?

1) This case was tried in court.  He lost the case.  The court decided that the cattle would be forcibly confiscated.

Yup, a link that you could have posted 2 posts of yours ago, along with links that show him advocating gathering protestors with weapons or him speaking out against the government with the explicit use of the word "liberal" or "left-wing" or etc.
Since that would help discussions on these forums if there were "a lot less people thinking they're dealing with inference or conjecture."

Here's what I said, again. Keep in mind it's basically a words-only flow-chart of what you were doing by finally posting that court case link.

Mainiac, it would probably help if you posted links supporting your arguments when you made them, rather than post your arguments, argue the point to whoever is willing to argue against it, wait until they say that you're bringing up stuff that hasn't been established on the thread, and then post links that support your argument and say "Look, I was right the whole time!".

[Helgoland]

LW: Why's that hypocrisy? The guy didn't pay up, he's getting removed, someone else is moving in (as far as I'm informed). If we don't care about the turtles, we have to approve of the government's actions; if we do, we can only criticize that they'll suffer from the solar power plant, not that the guy who's harming them right now is being disowned to pay for his debt.
And I believe the guy's son (it wasn't the guy himself) was not arrested for filming the police, but for being in an area he wasn't allowed to enter.

[Sheb]

Still, it seems like a very expensive way to remove cattle.

[Loud Whispers]

LW: Why's that hypocrisy? The guy didn't pay up, he's getting removed, someone else is moving in (as far as I'm informed). If we don't care about the turtles, we have to approve of the government's actions; if we do, we can only criticize that they'll suffer from the solar power plant, not that the guy who's harming them right now is being disowned to pay for his debt.
And I believe the guy's son (it wasn't the guy himself) was not arrested for filming the police, but for being in an area he wasn't allowed to enter.

The man payed up until they started telling him he couldn't go into Gold Butte because it endangered tortoises, whilst simultaneously allowing the energy corps. to take over and undertake their project which would destroy the juvenile tortoise populations. I'm erking away from making judgement on whether the US state is right to seize his cattle (completely disregarding HOW they went about it, and ignoring their other barbaric actions) until they sort out the shit on whether the fed or the state law has precedence, because I've heard two sides scream they're right and I don't see why either is.
In regards to the guy's son, it's just like in OWS how all those people were arrested for anything whilst they happened to be filming police officers. Or indeed, there are websites dedicated to the amount of times police do this. I take what they charge people they've beaten up with a pinch of salt.

Still, it seems like a very expensive way to remove cattle.

No kill like overkill. I always joked that the British would make its drones tiny like mosquitos, so you wouldn't see them when they came for you. The Americans would make theirs so massive, you would hear the rumble in the distance before you saw them

[Sheb]

Well, if it's BLM land I don't know why the state should have anything to say.

[Loud Whispers]

Well, if it's BLM land I don't know why the state should have anything to say.

Tortoises, heritage, Bechtel and Brightsource Energy e.t.c.
Also something about it being public land under Nevadan jurisdiction. I can't find much about that that's not from the ranchers yet, so that's on standstill.

[mainiac]

Still, it seems like a very expensive way to remove cattle.

Yes it is an expensive way to enforce the law but they don't appear to have any cheaper options.

[Sheb]

Arrest the guy? You don't need choppers and hundreds of police officers to move cattle, you need a squad car worth of cop to keep the guy in check and two cowboys on ATVs.

[Loud Whispers]

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2013/gold-butte-08-01-2013.html
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uKBGg9sqmE0J:www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo/blm_programs/more/trespass_cattle/history_of_trepass.print.html+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-aurora
This goes some way to explaining why the dispute happened in the first place.

"In 1993, some of the terms of Mr. Bundy’s grazing permit for the Bunkerville allotment were modified to protect the desert tortoise.  Mr. Bundy did not accept the offered grazing permit and subsequently stopped paying grazing fees.  The BLM then cancelled Mr. Bundy’s grazing permit but Mr. Bundy continued to graze his cattle in the Bunkerville Allotment.  A portion of the Bunkerville Allotment is National Park Service (NPS) lands which BLM managed by agreement with NPS."

"In 1997, in accordance with the Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the Biological Opinion released by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, active grazing permits in tortoise habitat were purchased by Clark County under the Clark County Multi-Species Habitat Conservation Program.  Mr. Bundy rejected a tentative proposal to compensate him for any stockwater rights or range improvements he might have in his former allotment."
His rights to graze his cattle on the lands were being restricted from 1993 to protect the tortoises, by 1997 they were going to stop his cattle from grazing there whether he had payed or not, hence the offered compensation. Also in the latter cache are the interesting notes behind the conflict, so it's a must read. In 1998 he was banned outright. In 1999 it was completely closed to all grazing.

Arrest the guy? You don't need choppers and hundreds of police officers to move cattle, you need a squad car worth of cop to keep the guy in check and two cowboys on ATVs.

Heck, the guy's only 67. You'd only need the cowboys and a couple of cops.

[Sheb]

Well, he got a family and employees. You don't want them messing up with the cowboys.

[mainiac]

Arrest the guy? You don't need choppers and hundreds of police officers to move cattle, you need a squad car worth of cop to keep the guy in check and two cowboys on ATVs.

So arrest him without due process and then hold him hostage until his family agrees to your demands? 

The court gave orders to seize the cattle, not the man.

[Sheb]

Not arrest him, but prevent him from interfering with the cattle seizue. Also, why seize the cattle rather than just order it removed? 1000 heads of cattle is a pain in the ass to seize, it's not like the government run ranches to hold the seize cattle.

[mainiac]

Not arrest him, but prevent him from interfering with the cattle seizue. Also, why seize the cattle rather than just order it removed? 1000 heads of cattle is a pain in the ass to seize, it's not like the government run ranches to hold the seize cattle.

Aside from the fact that the guys in the helicopters had guns too, how is this plan different from what they did?