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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[Owlbread]

The thing that worried me when I was on holiday in Florida once was all the bread tasted sweet and so did the butter. It's like you use sugar in the same way that we use salt.

[wierd]

Well, since I'm the one who brought up bread, specifically in relation to having to make my own to avoid the HFCS in store bought beads, and not having the time to do it, --in the greater context of obeise americans (Chris Christie, and why he's fat), I think that it actually kinda *is* what it was we were doing. Others were mentioning ways to avoid the problem as well.

*shrug*

[XXSockXX]

But you know, americans taking vacations-- that's not how big companies make big big profit! Think of the economic losses! OMG!

Economically that makes not much sense, since productivity in Europe isn't really worse than in the US. It's just that historically, roughly speaking, when the US destroyed it's unions and workers movements in the first half of the 20th century, we put ours in power. It doesn't appear like that is gonna change anytime soon, so yeah.

The thing that worried me when I was on holiday in Florida once was all the bread tasted sweet and so did the butter. It's like you use sugar in the same way that we use salt.

Oh yeah, and the milk too.

[Sheb]

The US are more productive than the EU average. Both by hour, and overrall (they work more hours). I suspect the GDP (and hence productivity) average is boosted by stuff like over-expensive healthcare and higher education (A surgeon doing a kidney transplant will create a service worth much more in the US than in Europe), but still, Americans are richer than European.

I still think the trade-off we made between money and well-being was a good one.

[wierd]

On vacation time, a relavent USA-Today story

From the article "1 in 4 americans does not get even a single day of paid time off."

So, yeah. It's a thing.

As for the "economic losses", I was referring sarcastically to our corporate overlord oppressors, who think we should be able to work nonstop, 24-7, 365 days a year without holidays or breaks, for barely minimum wage-- and damn it, if we can't do that, they'll outsource us to india.

(Hyperbole, but yeah.)

In the states, we have issues with our unions being so corrupt that it's painful, which creates a backlash against unionisation in places it would make asstons of sense.  Really, we are damned lucky to have weekends off.

[Sheb]

The "corrupt union" thing do seems to be a US cultural thing. (You jsut have to watch The Wire...). Is it true? My impression was that private-sector unions are mostly dead anyway.

[wierd]

Case #1) Hostess foods.

Company says "look, we can't afford to raise your pay yet again. People aren't buying junkfood like they used to, and we just can't do those numbers. We will go bankrupt."

Union says "Fuck you! We'll strike until we get our annual payraise, and get paid 35$+/hr!"

Company "We have filed the chapter 13 forms."

Really, that really *IS* the portrait of most production unions in this country.

Another poingant example, is the yellow cab union in NYC. Whooo boy. That's a wild ride.

[Bauglir]

You know, if that was in the contract, then they were right to strike.

[XXSockXX]

Well, it's a completely different system here. Wages are often negotiated for entire regional industries between representatives of employers and workers. Unions have lost quite a bit of influence due to de-industrialisation, but every company of a certain size is legally required to allow a workers council.

[wierd]

The deal is that these demanded pay raises greatly exceed the rise in costs of living. They demand unreasonable pay, unreasonably.

Unions are meant to protect workers. Not to ensure that workers get rediculously over paid, or to positively ensure that there is never any competition for the work. (Such as in the case of the yellow cab union. Seriously. They were angry over alternative transport services moving in, where people basically carpooled for a modest fee with people they knew. They had a purple cow over it.)

[Sheb]

Okay, but then, if they ask for too much money, the boss can simply say no. Sure, they can strike, but if they strike for futile stuff all they'll do is loose income for their members.

[Xantalos]

It happens, though. Few years back in BC Canada there was a big kerfuffle about teacher's unions.

[XXSockXX]

We have things like that happen too, but overall the unions tend to be reasonable, at least during the negotiation process. There is a strong tradition of negotiations and compromises between unions and industry representatives here. It varies from country to country though, what the French call a minor strike would be called a bloody riot in Germany.

[wierd]

Here in my part of flyoverland USA, we specialize in making aircraft. We have one great big union.

This is the "Machinists Union".  This union has memberships that go outside of any specific employer here.

Say the employees at Cessna go on strike. The union will reimburse their lost pay, while they strike. They do this with the union dues collected from the other union members who don't work at cessna, but instead work for Learjet, Boeing, Bombardier, and co.

They can strike for MONTHS.

[Sheb]

Sure. And we got bus workers here that strike every time a customer is rude or threatening to them. (Seriously, they go on strike so often that I've seen union leaders complains about all the strikes). Abuse exists, but are they common? Especially in the private sector, where the boss got more of an incentive to stay firm in the face of the unions?

*Yeah, they can do this. But still, I'm not sure the union leadership is going to look fondly on the Cessna chapter going on a strike for a stupid reason and taking all their money.