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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[Mictlantecuhtli]

"Proof" of this ranged from firing MacArthur (who nearly lost Korea by never expecting either the initial invasion or the entry of China into the war, although to be fair to the man more recent information suggests that this was primarily his staff officers failure)

The reason MacArthur was fired?

General Curtis LeMay remembered correctly that the JCS had earlier concluded that atomic weapons would probably not be useful in Korea, except as part of "an overall atomic campaign against Red China." But, if these orders were now being changed because of the entry of Chinese forces into the war, LeMay wanted the job; he told Stratemeyer that only his headquarters had the experience, technical training, and "intimate knowledge" of delivery methods. The man who had directed the firebombing of Tokyo in 1945 was again ready to proceed to the Far East to direct the attacks. (11) Washington was not worried that the Russians would respond with atomic weapons because the US possessed at least 450 bombs and the Soviets only 25.

On 9 December MacArthur said that he wanted commander's discretion to use atomic weapons in the Korean theatre. On 24 December he submitted "a list of retardation targets" for which he required 26 atomic bombs. He also wanted four to drop on the "invasion forces" and four more for "critical concentrations of enemy air power."

In interviews published posthumously, MacArthur said he had a plan that would have won the war in 10 days: "I would have dropped 30 or so atomic bombs . . . strung across the neck of Manchuria." Then he would have introduced half a million Chinese Nationalist troops at the Yalu and then "spread behind us -- from the Sea of Japan to the Yellow Sea -- a belt of radioactive cobalt . . . it has an active life of between 60 and 120 years. For at least 60 years there could have been no land invasion of Korea from the North." He was certain that the Russians would have done nothing about this extreme strategy: "My plan was a cinch." (12)

Because he was goddamn genocidal and insane. He wanted to drop atleast 30 atomic bombs. Entire overkill, for one, and entirely useless, two.

Only a fool with a penchant for idiotic ideas like genocide of non-proper Chinese/Koreans would lose an entirely winnable war against a weak, under equipped and arguably untrained army. Macarthur is one of the people we have to blame for the cold war spinning completely out of hand. A bad general? No. A poor decision maker? Yes.

http://hnn.us/article/9245
Here's a link to a lesser-abridged version of the Korean war story. There's plenty more out there, I just can't be arsed to pull out all my insane MacDaddyArthur quotage.

[Lord Shonus]

That he actually endorsed such a plan as opposed to simply threatening the PRC with it is something that I was never aware of. However, it was not so much Macarthur himself that I considered important, but how his firing was used by the 1950s GOP as "proof" that Truman was soft on commies.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Which leads to why we had such an insane policy regarding such things from then on. Truman got absolutely destroyed [22% approval after, IIRC] in approval polls for firing the guy. A genocidal general.

[Vector]

All in all the Republicans have always had a better message that has resonated with people. The only reason they are loosing is because they've been acting stupid for the past 5 33 years

ftfy

That makes sense only if people doesn't include women and minorities, though.

[RedKing]

All in all the Republicans have always had a better message that has resonated with people. The only reason they are loosing is because they've been acting stupid for the past 5 33 years

ftfy

That makes sense only if people doesn't include women and minorities, though.

Well....prior to the Great Realignment of 1964/68, it was primarily the Democrats who were against civil rights and women's suffrage. The GOP was a fairly moderate party up until they absorbed the huge influx of conservative Southern Democrats that put Nixon in the White House.

[Vector]

Right, but that's not a mere 33 years .-.  That's the message of the modern GOP, ever since the Great Alignment.

I'm not trying to say that the Dixie Democrats weren't a thing, I'm just trying to say that the group we think of as the Republican party, which emerged during that time, didn't "always have a better message that has resonated with people."

[RedKing]

Ahh, I see what you're driving at. No argument here.

[Andrew425]

Well tactically McArthurs plan was good. A quick and expedient war with little allied casualties.

When you make a soldier fight a war he's going to want all the tools in the toolbox. The reason the U.S. has been struggling in it's overseas combats since 1945 is that the U.S. public is hamstringing them every step of the way.

And the reason they struggled in the Korean war was because of the sheer amount of troops that attacked them. The had no real plan for that sort of massive scale assault except for nukes which they weren't allowed to use.


Though i'm not a big fan of McArthur after I read about him retreating to Australia leaving behind all his men to the Japanese

[Bauglir]

Well tactically McArthurs plan was good. A quick and expedient war with little allied casualties.

Being tactically good does not make it a good plan. Also, if one buys that he was an excellent leader, retreating to safety was the correct decision because it preserves a vital resource - that'd be a reason to like him, I think.

[Lord Shonus]

He didn't "retreat". FDR sent a plane with orders to leave. On that plane were armed guards allegedly for protection of the General. In actuality, they were there to make sure he obeyed the order.


Besides that, his intention was for most of the troops to surrender (remember that at this time the Japanese pride in ignoring the Geneva Convention and the sadistic way they treated prisoners wasn't common knowledge. The way they treated Chinese was, but they believed that to be caused by the extreme degree of racism between Japanese and Chinese in the era), while the troops in Mindanao were supposed to form a guerrilla movement with the supplies stockpiled there. Due to command confusion, those supplies wound up being destroyed, and it fell to a band of American and Filipino deserters led by a self-promoted Lieutenant Colonel (Fertig promoted himself to Brigadier General, United States Forces In Philippines in the correct belief that the local population would not have the necessary confidence in his resistance movement under his true rank) to organize the resistance with practically nothing. (Eventually, the US made contact and started shipping supplies in by submarine, but that was little more than a trickle.)

[misko27]

Two things to remember about that nuclear plan MacArthur had.

1) Back then there was no "Nuclear Taboo", or at least one not as strong as the current; nuclear weapons weren't necessarily crossing as severe a line, and could be used without immediately provoking WWIII.
2) If he had used them, there would likely never have been a "nuclear taboo": whenever anyone who had them wanted to use them, they simply would use them and be done with it, and no outrage or larger repercussions would occur. Decisions regarding their use would be purely tactical. How much damage this would do is impossible to predict, but it's safe to say "a lot".

Of course this requires the benefits of Hindsight, but it remains.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

Oh, hey, well, there you go. Even the premise was flawed.

[Owlbread]

MacArthur also let Japanese war criminals go free in exchange for access to their medical research. He didn't care that the information had been gained by performing some of the most barbaric experiments in human history on Chinese civilians (who cares though? It's not like they're white). The Soviets were the only people who had an iota of principle and hanged those they captured.

[Leafsnail]

When you make a soldier fight a war he's going to want all the tools in the toolbox. The reason the U.S. has been struggling in it's overseas combats since 1945 is that the U.S. public is hamstringing them every step of the way.

It sucks that the US public has prevented its army from performing acts of wholesale genocide.

[Andrew425]

When you make a soldier fight a war he's going to want all the tools in the toolbox. The reason the U.S. has been struggling in it's overseas combats since 1945 is that the U.S. public is hamstringing them every step of the way.

It sucks that the US public has prevented its army from performing acts of wholesale genocide.

It sucks that the US public has forced its army into unwinnable situations

O_o