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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[Max White]

I've met a few religious ministers who will admit to being atheists. They spent years of their lives training to be ministers and don't really have any other skills to pay the bills, so they just treat it like a day job and let people choose for themselves.

[Helgoland]

He's all talk. I'll jump on the Francis bandwagon when, and only when, he makes some actual positive changes to the Catholic Church. I will remind you all that this is still a guy who considers homosexuality a "derangement".

Pretty sure when he talked about homosexuality he declared that homosexuality itself, as in an attraction to the same sex, is not a sin, but the committing of homosexual sexual acts is where the Church draws the line. Not sure how that's the same as calling it a "derangement".

I am not impressed by the watered-down "it's not your fault" bigotry of the Catholic Church just because it is not the full-blown psycho bigotry of some other Christian groups.

People, people, just give it time! That particular part of doctrine cannot be abolished right now because it would alienate conservatives, and not just the nutty kind; but by accepting homosexuals in principle, these are slowly being turned more progressive. The Catholic Church is like a giant ship: You start steering, and at first you hardly notice anything; but after some time, it begins to change course, and it's very hard to reverse that process.

[Max White]

Well yea, if you heave to, let out all sails and try to point her into the wind too quickly you are going to capsize! Best to act with tact and react to the waters...

I really like sailing analogies. 

[PTTG??]

Well yea, if you heave to, let out all sails and try to point her into the wind too quickly you are going to capsize! Best to act with tact and react to the waters...

I really like sailing analogies. 

Shiver me timbers.

[Sheb]

More seriously, it's going to be hard for the church to be totally cool with gays because, well, it's written right there in the Bible it's bad, and unlike most of the rest, sexual stuff wasn't invalidated by St Paul and his pals in the new testament.

[Max White]

Couldn't we just invent a prophet to write a new-new-testament? One that is totally down with homosexuality and public health care?

Alright, we need a volunteer to spend the rest of their lives pretending that god is talking to them directly. It can't be that bad, republicans do it all the time!

[Urist Imiknorris]

Couldn't we just invent a prophet to write a new-new-testament? One that is totally down with homosexuality and public health care?

Wasn't the old New Testament pretty okay with both anyway?

[kaijyuu]

Couldn't we just invent a prophet to write a new-new-testament? One that is totally down with homosexuality and public health care?

Wasn't the old New Testament pretty okay with both anyway?

Don't think it commented on either. It did declare that rich people most likely ain't going to heaven, though.

Alright, we need a volunteer to spend the rest of their lives pretending that god is talking to them directly. It can't be that bad, republicans do it all the time!

Some churches already do claim that (see: Mormons). It'd be more effective if a progressive person got into power in those, but the Pope can't rewrite the bible as far as I know.

[Max White]

Wasn't the old New Testament pretty okay with both anyway?

I doubt it, public health care sounds like something the Romans would do.

[misko27]

Couldn't we just invent a prophet to write a new-new-testament? One that is totally down with homosexuality and public health care?

Alright, we need a volunteer to spend the rest of their lives pretending that god is talking to them directly. It can't be that bad, republicans do it all the time!

There is a section of the The Brothers Karamazov, where one of the main characters, who has written a poem called "The Grand Inquisitor", reads it aloud. It details a world where Christ came back to earth around the period of the Inquisition, performing miracles akin to those he performed in the Bible, and people realize who he is and adore him. Eventually he is found by the Inquisition and sentenced to be burned. The Inquisitor comes to his cell and begins to explain, with Jesus listening silently, why His coming hurts the church and the church's mission, starting with "Why hast Thou come now to hinder us? For Thou hast come to hinder us, and Thou knowest that...". He speaks of the "burden" free will is, and how the three temptations Jesus faced in the desert, the ones from Satan, represented why Jesus was wrong. He said hungry men would only follow a man who fed them, how to be saved from falling by angels would cement His status as a God, how being ruler of all earth could allow Him to rule fairly and justly, and finally:

We are working not with Thee but with him [Satan]... We took from him what Thou didst reject with scorn, that last gift he offered Thee, showing Thee all the kingdoms of the earth. We took from him Rome and the sword of Caesar, and proclaimed ourselves sole rulers of the earth... We shall triumph and shall be Caesars, and then we shall plan the universal happiness of man.

That is why it is hard to change the Catholic Church. Not because they are working with Satan or something, but the idea of preaching through and by Dogma, and of gaining loyalty through their own cementedness as the church of God, which should be heard and obeyed but not necessarily understood. To be the judgmental high-minded clergy keeping all matter of dangerous ideas away. Priest Celibacy isn't even in the bible, that was a rule change in the 12th century to keep priests from passing down church property to their children (which says all kinds of things). But the word of the past, of tradition, of their own infallibility, is absolute. That any man, even the Pope, could change the system, even a bit, is dependent on a fight between the entrenched and reformers. It will take years; MSH apparently thinks the Pope should have done it already.

The Pope has to, indeed must, say and do certain things. He wouldn't be Pope if he didn't say and do certain things. You want results out of a man for whom even saying that the church spends too much time focusing on Homosexuals and abortion starts alarm bells ringing amongst the conservatives. None of us here are politicians, few here realize how powerful internal politics are. All I can say for the Pope is that I hope he lives a while.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It will take years; MSH apparently thinks the Pope should have done it already.

Actually, I think the Catholic Church is a relic of humanity's awful past, overflowing with corruption and sick views of the world, that we would all be better off without. But since it isn't going to vanish overnight, the best it can do is repudiate all the evils it has done and try to, ironically enough, repent.

I'm not stupid. I know none of that is going to happen until the religion loses enough stability that radical reformers are placed in power to try to forestall its collapse, since even heresy is superior to it ceasing to be for such people. That doesn't change anything to me. The Catholic Church hurts people today, and always has in the past. In my eyes, it is evil.

[Baffler]

It will take years; MSH apparently thinks the Pope should have done it already.

Actually, I think the Catholic Church is a relic of humanity's awful past, overflowing with corruption and sick views of the world, that we would all be better off without. But since it isn't going to vanish overnight, the best it can do is repudiate all the evils it has done and try to, ironically enough, repent.

I'm not stupid. I know none of that is going to happen until the religion loses enough stability that radical reformers are placed in power to try to forestall its collapse, since even heresy is superior to it ceasing to be for such people. That doesn't change anything to me. The Catholic Church hurts people today, and always has in the past. In my eyes, it is evil.

I know I will regret posting this, but it's easy to rail against the church for the Inquisition and other medieval abuses, but surely if they are evil, a more contemporary example can be provided? They're moving away from the outright hatred of homosexuals that was expected even just a decade ago. I am fully aware that the dislike still exists, but you can't honestly expect such a huge change over anything but a long stretch of years. The church will almost certainly change, but it will change the same way it always has, very slowly and deliberately. Anything less would simply alienate significant chunks of its members and wreck the progress made.

People, people, just give it time! That particular part of doctrine cannot be abolished right now because it would alienate conservatives, and not just the nutty kind; but by accepting homosexuals in principle, these are slowly being turned more progressive. The Catholic Church is like a giant ship: You start steering, and at first you hardly notice anything; but after some time, it begins to change course, and it's very hard to reverse that process.

Pretty much this.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It will take years; MSH apparently thinks the Pope should have done it already.

Actually, I think the Catholic Church is a relic of humanity's awful past, overflowing with corruption and sick views of the world, that we would all be better off without. But since it isn't going to vanish overnight, the best it can do is repudiate all the evils it has done and try to, ironically enough, repent.

I'm not stupid. I know none of that is going to happen until the religion loses enough stability that radical reformers are placed in power to try to forestall its collapse, since even heresy is superior to it ceasing to be for such people. That doesn't change anything to me. The Catholic Church hurts people today, and always has in the past. In my eyes, it is evil.

I know I will regret posting this, but it's easy to rail against the church for the Inquisition and other medieval abuses, but surely if they are evil, a more contemporary example can be provided? They're moving away from the outright hatred of homosexuals that was expected even just a decade ago. I am fully aware that the dislike still exists, but you can't honestly expect such a huge change over anything but a long stretch of years. The church will almost certainly change, but it will change the same way it always has, very slowly and deliberately. Anything less would simply alienate significant chunks of its members and wreck the progress made.

People, people, just give it time! That particular part of doctrine cannot be abolished right now because it would alienate conservatives, and not just the nutty kind; but by accepting homosexuals in principle, these are slowly being turned more progressive. The Catholic Church is like a giant ship: You start steering, and at first you hardly notice anything; but after some time, it begins to change course, and it's very hard to reverse that process.

Pretty much this.

As I said, I'm not stupid. I'm seeing all the same things you all are, but I have come to a vastly different conclusion. The Church's gradual change is not a cause for celebration because it still stems from the same ultimate incompatibility with a modern and tolerant world.

You've seen the way even the "gradual change" has resulted in outrage, when it has gone nothing beyond soothing platitudes while the legacy of the Church's actions still fester. As for things the modern Church has done, there is of course the pedophilia and the Church's attempts to cover it up, the opposition to contraceptives and avocation of this to people in heavily Catholic HIV-stricken nations, the discrimination against women and homosexuals, and all the other assorted regressive baggage of being an old religion.

It is very fortunate, I think, that there is a vast divide between the Catholic Church's official dogma and the actions of actual Catholics. If everybody listened to what the Papacy told them, we would be in a much darker world. The Papacy isn't going to change meaningfully, and I think we've seen more then enough to demonstrate that. It took centuries for it to make the most basic and obvious changes, which were like pulling teeth all along. To it, homosexuals, women, and non-Catholics are always going to be inferior, no matter how nicely it is dressed up. The only exception is "change or collapse" reforms, as I mentioned before.

[LordSlowpoke]

It is very fortunate, I think, that there is a vast divide between the Catholic Church's official dogma and the actions of actual Catholics. If everybody listened to what the Papacy told them, we would be in a much darker world. The Papacy isn't going to change meaningfully, and I think we've seen more then enough to demonstrate that. It took centuries for it to make the most basic and obvious changes, which were like pulling teeth all along. To it, homosexuals, women, and non-Catholics are always going to be inferior, no matter how nicely it is dressed up. The only exception is "change or collapse" reforms, as I mentioned before.

There appears to be a wide dissonance between what I think the Papacy tells people and what you think the Papacy tells people.

Because hell, the times when they manipulated the scripture in order to further their own political goals are gone for around a century now. Were we to go with the "shit, let's be Catholics" stance in the actual-true-Scotsman manner, we'd ultimately be better off, what with tolerance (as assumed by... the second commandment, was it?) and Christian communism and all the other good stuff nobody really cares about. So yeah, once you're pulling extremes like that go ahead and push them a little bit further than the "dystopia" mark on the scale, thanks.

It's a rare day when I defend religion. I'll need to write this down in a diary or something. I'm genuinely sorry for picturing you with a fedora right now I can't help it

[kaijyuu]

MSH is just being a hardass as usual.