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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 833837 times)

Chaoswizkid

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4080 on: October 28, 2013, 02:16:00 pm »

Prices are capped and regulated,

For all income brackets?

Quote
if a procedure costs more than it is worth to the insurance company, they will simply cut the provider out of their network and the providers know that.
Healthcare isn't something you can just order online (yes, you can order pharmaceuticals, but I'm talking about things like surgeries). It has geographical significance. I'm not certain that insurance companies can basically say "If you don't lower your costs, then you won't have any business with us." Their customers would either have to move away to a location that has caregivers that are accepted or they'd change insurance companies.

How is geographical significance dealt with, then? We do have a very large number of hospitals, but hospitals are also located to serve a population. When the population grows beyond their capacity, the hospital is improved, a new hospital is built, clinics are established, etc. While it's possible in cities with large numbers of hospitals that a population can just swap to another nearby hospital, that would completely screw with population metrics and you'd likely see horrible overflows. The hospital that refuses to negotiate down their prices enough would likely shut down, prompting a pretty horrible situation. Now, the hospital wouldn't want that happen so they would be willing to negotiate to a certain degree, but the power is not entirely with the insurance companies because the hospital can say "Well, if you actually went through with your threat, everyone would be pretty screwed and it'd come down to who could better convince people was the bad guy of the situation." This is to say nothing of rural populations which would be in considerable trouble should insurance companies refuse to cover local hospitals.

Quote
Furthermore the insurers can't drop people when their care becomes expensive, again something that providers know.  So if the insurers don't negotiate prices down they don't make a profit.  You can't ask someone to give an inch when they're back is against the wall.

This is true, but then prices will only be adjusted such that the insurers turn a profit, not necessarily that healthcare costs in the US lower to near the levels of other countries. Now, if prices have been capped and regulated at all income brackets, then that's a very significant facet of this entire situation and how healthcare costs can be significantly lowered comes into focus pretty easily.

Quote
You may not think these negotiations work, but Medicare has been doing them successfully for decades and Medicaid has been doing them even more successfully than that.
And yet healthcare costs are still absurdly high, showing that the negotiations from Medicare and Medicaid aren't nearly enough. They only deal with a fraction of the population, a fraction that hospitals are likely to make deals over considering it'd be good for PR and any losses incurred can be covered by the cost of other services to those not covered by Medicare and Medicaid. In addition to that, Medicare and Medicaid are publically funded, so grouping them together as being the same as private insurance companies is a bit dubious. Are you saying that all insurance companies are going to band together and blanketly demand that costs are cut across the board?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4081 on: October 28, 2013, 02:41:07 pm »

So I'm going to listen to a presentation by the head of the North Carolina NAACP on the state's politics and protests tonight. It should be interesting, so I'll give you all a rundown later tonight.
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Strife26

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4082 on: October 28, 2013, 03:54:32 pm »

The truly ironic part is that the ACA will likely actually make the insurance market a market. Since you have to have insurance and the abusive practices are banned, it becomes in the insurance company's best interest to offer the cheapest and most useful coverage, lest you take your business elsewhere.

Once again, the Democrats prove to be the party of capitalism, and the Republicans prove to be the party of crazy.

Which is disappointing for people who really wish we had a party of socialism.


So it's disappointing to Soviets, right? I thought that Reagan beat them awhile back. :p
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4083 on: October 28, 2013, 03:59:13 pm »

You could always vote for Socialist Party USA.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4084 on: October 28, 2013, 04:06:27 pm »

You could always vote for Socialist Party USA.
*stifled laughter*
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4085 on: October 28, 2013, 04:08:18 pm »

Stewart Alexander seems like a nice guy. It's just a pity the "far left" (more like centre-left) is so dominated by that brash heifer Roseanne Barr.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:16:09 pm by Owlbread »
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lue

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4086 on: October 28, 2013, 04:11:20 pm »

So I'm going to listen to a presentation by the head of the North Carolina NAACP on the state's politics and protests tonight. It should be interesting, so I'll give you all a rundown later tonight.
That should be interesting. Can't wait to hear your recap!

You could always vote for Socialist Party USA.
*stifled laughter*
We could form the National Socialist Democrats for American Prosperity.

Go NSDAP! Go NSDAP! Go NSDAP!

wait...
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RedKing

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4087 on: October 28, 2013, 04:39:44 pm »

Correcting adverse selection in insurance markets will exert a lot of downward pressure on healthcare costs.
How? How does removal of adverse selection stop a gastroenterologist from getting a six-figure yearly income working a few hours two days a week? How does removal of adverse selection stop pharmaceutical companies from charging whatever they want?

Why in the world would the medical industry (yes, industry) listen to insurance companies? "Listen, we need to charge less, so we need you to stop charging so much." How is their response anything other than "lolnothxkbai"?
Coming in late on this, but how does Walmart tell its suppliers, "We want to sell for the lowest price, so we need you to suck it up and lower your vendor price to us." Because that's pretty much their thing.

If a hospital says, "screw you we're charging $1000 to give an aspirin" then all the insurance companies drop that hospital from their list. Yes, the poor schlep who needs that aspirin is screwed because they've now got a $1000 bill for a headache. And probably won't pay. Which means the hospital is going to have to go to court to recover that costs, which is a money-losing proposition for them for really any amount under $50,000 or so.

And if the insurance companies drop that hospital (or doctor or pharmaceutical concern or what have you) from their approved list, then people with that insurance will note that and go elsewhere for things like elective surgery. Or the pharmacist will prescribe an alternate medication. Etc. etc.

The "industry" doesn't have all the power in this setup.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:44:54 pm by RedKing »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4088 on: October 28, 2013, 04:41:54 pm »

that brash heifer Roseanne Barr.

You cad! I think you owe the cattle of this country an apology.
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4089 on: October 28, 2013, 05:31:37 pm »

Stuff

You should really read the stuff that came after that if you haven't already. I've stated in my last couple of posts how insurance companies as a single entity can't reasonably refuse service for a hospital, and as individual entities they either cause the consumers to switch insurance or to move. Not saying what you're saying isn't valid, I'm just saying that we've already gotten to "refusal of service" and kind of just waiting to see what people have to say about it being that viable or not viable.
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misko27

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4090 on: October 28, 2013, 06:08:11 pm »

You could always vote for Socialist Party USA.
Haha, haha, oh, wait, you're serious. The most that would accomplish is occasionally be a vote spoiler for the democrats alla the Libertarians. The worst would totally split the party in half al la the Tea Party.

Americans still support capitalism, the national identity of entrepreneurs is ingrained in us after all; the democrats simply support a reformed, more actually equal system. As the book The American Political Tradition quotes and which I must forget "If America was a house the door would be marked with a sign that says "No Entry Here, except on Business".

For anyone who thinks the establishment can simply put down the Tea Party the way they would a rabid dog, I urge reading this: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/right-flanks-huddle-to-push-conservative-goals-98902.html
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RedKing

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4091 on: October 28, 2013, 06:11:08 pm »

Stuff

You should really read the stuff that came after that if you haven't already. I've stated in my last couple of posts how insurance companies as a single entity can't reasonably refuse service for a hospital, and as individual entities they either cause the consumers to switch insurance or to move. Not saying what you're saying isn't valid, I'm just saying that we've already gotten to "refusal of service" and kind of just waiting to see what people have to say about it being that viable or not viable.

They can certainly refuse to compensate above an "industry standard". I ran into this the other day with my kids' pediatric urgent care. Insurance only covers a certain portion, so in addition to the co-pay we're on the hook for a few bucks extra. For a few bucks on a minor procedure, no real effect other than annoyance.

For major procedures, especially elective surgery, you get those quotes ahead of time. Which allows you to shop around and yes it will penalize hospitals/doctors who charge above a certain base level. The crux of the problem is when you don't have time to shop around (like when you're lying in the ER with a gunshot wound) and get left with a ginormous bill because the hospital charges too much and the insurance won't pay.
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Helgoland

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4092 on: October 28, 2013, 07:06:44 pm »

We could form the National Socialist Democrats for American Prosperity.

Go NSDAP! Go NSDAP! Go NSDAP!

wait...
It was the abbreviation that got you? Not the, you know, National Socialist part?
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lue

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4093 on: October 28, 2013, 07:13:43 pm »

We could form the National Socialist Democrats for American Prosperity.

Go NSDAP! Go NSDAP! Go NSDAP!

wait...
It was the abbreviation that got you? Not the, you know, National Socialist part?
:) There are some variations you could put on the name:
  • National Sensible Democrats for American Prosperity
  • National Social(ist) Democrats for America Party
  • National Society of Democrats for American Prosperity
Honestly the best part would be if the party's abbreviation didn't attract any major media attention :)) .

I'm also surprised I was able to come up with a suitable backronym so quickly. It's almost disturbing.
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Helgoland

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4094 on: October 28, 2013, 07:24:06 pm »

Nonaligned Social Democrats for American Progress
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.
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