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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 839028 times)

Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4035 on: October 26, 2013, 09:17:17 am »

Don't you guys have terrible waiting times?
(And, just out of curiosity, what Europeans? Russians, Belgians, Andorrians?)

To be honest I don't actually know. We do get a number of wealthy Europeans but I'm not sure what particular group, I'd be guessing if I said Russian. Mostly though it's wealthy Arabs and South Asians coming to get spinal treatment and stuff like that.
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Leafsnail

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4036 on: October 26, 2013, 09:18:48 am »

I think there are a couple of experimental and expensive drugs that the UK has not approved for use, and people occasionally go to the US to get those.  The amount of people doing this are completely insignificant when compared to the number of Americans seeking cheaper treatment abroad.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4037 on: October 26, 2013, 09:24:10 am »

So yeah, Iran just nicked one of the US's high-tech drones they found in their skies.

I do not know a single European who would even consider going to America to get treatment - it may happen in a select few cases where a world-class specialist works in the US, but a) that happens the other way around too and b) it has nothing to do with your friggin health care system. You just pulled a Michelle Bachmann there! The thing the US healthcare system is generally known for in Europe is people selling their houses to afford life-saving surgery and ambulances cruising a city for hours, not being taken by any hospital, because the person in it is uninsured.
/rant, but that was too [redacted].
Just butting in, the US healthcare industry itself is known for being one of the world's most advanced with the best equipment around. If you have a rare condition or some ailment that you could better treat [with extra money of course], America is off to where you'd go. The issue of American healthcare is not quality, but availability.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 09:29:31 am by Loud Whispers »
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Helgoland

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4038 on: October 26, 2013, 09:32:50 am »

As I said, fringe cases that won't be touched by the recent improvements - look at GJ's original claims: He claims that this is a large issue that will lead to rich people getting worse treatment and the health care systems of other countries degrading.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4039 on: October 26, 2013, 10:09:56 am »

I do not know a single European who would even consider going to America to get treatment

Why would these?  Not even Canadians would want to pay way more for treatment they can get faster at home.

It's a myth that arrived because conservatives didn't fact check things that sounded right to their gut.  No basis in truth.
There's also "doctors from other countries come to America because socialized medicine won't pay them", which firstly would seem a rather strange argument in the face of our doctor shortage, but more importantly is completely impossible as you have to have a certification from an American medical school to practice medicine in America.
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Descan

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4040 on: October 26, 2013, 11:12:00 am »

Basically, the amount of [Canadian] people that go to America for healthcare is negligible. And of those who DO, it's mostly because they were already there! No reason to go back home to get treatment and ruin your vacation or whatever.

Even when treatment in an American hospital was paid for by the health-care system, Canadians still chose to use the Canadian hospital.

As for cost, it's easier to negotiate a low price when you're an entire country, rather than a single person or even insurance company. Prices everywhere are going up, sure, but they're going up slower in public-health-care countries. :P
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GreatJustice

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4041 on: October 26, 2013, 11:34:17 am »

Well, in general, healthcare costs per capita have been shooting up pretty fast even in places with "free" healthcare like Canada (I think it's around 10% of GDP here now?). It's just that they've been massively outpacing inflation in the US ever since the 70s, whereas before American healthcare was no more expensive (and usually better in quality).
Do you actually not understand that healthcare gets more expensive as more types of treatment are developed?

Yes, but then the costs should generally tend to go down as the treatments become more common, manufacture becomes easier, etc. This is what happens, in, well, every single other industry as technological advances are made.

Also, if the Americans change their system too much, rich people from Europe, Canada, etc wouldn't be able to go there when they need treatment, so instead of using their money to go to American hospitals they'd be using their influence to bump themselves up the waiting list at home, which is hardly a good thing for anyone involved.
I do not know a single European who would even consider going to America to get treatment - it may happen in a select few cases where a world-class specialist works in the US, but a) that happens the other way around too and b) it has nothing to do with your friggin health care system. You just pulled a Michelle Bachmann there! The thing the US healthcare system is generally known for in Europe is people selling their houses to afford life-saving surgery and ambulances cruising a city for hours, not being taken by any hospital, because the person in it is uninsured.
/rant, but that was too [redacted].

For all of the American system's flaws, the last point actually doesn't happen, as hospitals are obligated by law to take patients regardless of ability to pay (how much they pay after is a different story). I suppose I can't speak for Europe, but those in Canada with lots of money often head south for treatment, even when it isn't strictly necessary. Hell, the former premier of Newfoundland did that once.

The interesting thing is that, in the US, costs have tended to increase drastically whenever it moves closer towards a socialized or semi-socialized system

Please substantiate your extremely dubious proposition or retract it.

Your argument is invalid the instant it starts comparing "private insurance" costs to Medicare and Medicaid, when, in fact, private insurance is so incredibly controlled through coverage mandates (even ignoring the ACA) and statewide restrictions that it has exactly the same problems. Compare the graph provided earlier with this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and it's pretty clear that the bulk of American healthcare expense increases occurred after out of pocket payment began to fall, in short, when healthcare started to become more "socialized". I can go into more detail about what specific issues the system has, but I've had this argument so many times that I'd rather not explain every little problem with the American system.

As I said, fringe cases that won't be touched by the recent improvements - look at GJ's original claims: He claims that this is a large issue that will lead to rich people getting worse treatment and the health care systems of other countries degrading.

No. My argument is that, if America adopts a system similar to those of Canada or the UK (so single tiered or two tiered, respectively), then the rich people who would otherwise go there, reducing the strain on our systems, would instead stick around to cut ahead in line for treatment at home.

I'll bring up another point, though, since you mentioned it; The US is, because of it's incredibly messed up system, the place where pharmaceutical companies actually make most of their money, allowing them to sell at fairly small profit margins elsewhere. Mind, they're able to make such huge profits in America through a mixture of FDA protection, patent law, medical equipment subsidies, and abuse of the insurance payment system, but they still rely on American sales to come out ahead. In the event America's system became similar to those of other countries, those profits would no longer exist, so the pharmaceutical companies would jack up prices to compensate for the gigantic loss in revenue. So America's messed up, broken system indirectly allows for the not-quite broken systems of other countries to function by indirectly paying for their drugs.

I do not know a single European who would even consider going to America to get treatment

Why would these?  Not even Canadians would want to pay way more for treatment they can get faster at home.

It's a myth that arrived because conservatives didn't fact check things that sounded right to their gut.  No basis in truth.

Note how I didn't say "all us poor Canadians want to go to America for treatment", I specifically said "rich people". Obviously that is a far smaller subset of Canadians, and smaller still when you consider that the wealthy tend to require treatment less often (what with being more likely to live healthier lives and all). Try again.

Basically, the amount of [Canadian] people that go to America for healthcare is negligible. And of those who DO, it's mostly because they were already there! No reason to go back home to get treatment and ruin your vacation or whatever.

Even when treatment in an American hospital was paid for by the health-care system, Canadians still chose to use the Canadian hospital.

As for cost, it's easier to negotiate a low price when you're an entire country, rather than a single person or even insurance company. Prices everywhere are going up, sure, but they're going up slower in public-health-care countries. :P

It's less "public health countries are better are keeping costs down", its more "none of the present systems are good at keeping costs down, but America's is positively terrible at it and makes the rest look good".
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Bauglir

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4042 on: October 26, 2013, 11:40:25 am »

The US is, because of it's incredibly messed up system, the place where pharmaceutical companies actually make most of their money, allowing them to sell at fairly small profit margins elsewhere. Mind, they're able to make such huge profits in America through a mixture of FDA protection, patent law, medical equipment subsidies, and abuse of the insurance payment system, but they still rely on American sales to come out ahead. In the event America's system became similar to those of other countries, those profits would no longer exist, so the pharmaceutical companies would jack up prices to compensate for the gigantic loss in revenue. So America's messed up, broken system indirectly allows for the not-quite broken systems of other countries to function by indirectly paying for their drugs.
Now, I don't really have enough information to argue for or against anything else you said, but my experience with pharmacy suggests that the companies involved wouldn't really refrain from raising prices elsewhere because they're already making enough money in the US. If higher prices were an option, they'd already be higher, because pharmaceutical companies love money.
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Descan

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4043 on: October 26, 2013, 11:49:34 am »

I like the Canadian system because it's a good mix of private and public. The COST is public, no one should be turned out into the snow because of a lack of money. Even America recognizes that, hospitals give treatment to Americans who can't pay, but instead of them going on their merry way like in Canada, the patient goes bankrupt and the government still foots the bill. The bill which is more expensive in the first place. So in Canada, everyone pays for healthcare via taxes, no one goes bankrupt because of hospital bills, and everyone gets treatment with a weighting towards those who need immediate treatment.

And private in that you can choose your doctor, your hospital, whether you get treatment or not at all. No one forces you to take a doctor, and no insurance company says "No, you can't use that doctor, he's not on our roster." Every doctor is in the healthcare system, and if they're not, why are you risking your life by using them?

And, again, the amount of people who go to America for health-care is -negligible-. Them suddenly using their own (or more likely, another health-care system, if their own is terrible) would not suddenly overburden said system. There isn't enough people to make any difference!

As for the costs of drugs, quite frankly? It sucks for Americans that they're subsidizing everyone elses drug use. Even if I have to pay a bit more, that's 300 million people who are taking the brunt of the worlds drug costs. Spread it out a bit more and it won't be too terrible.

Though personally I'd prefer if drug research was public, done in universities and done to actually create better drugs rather than a re-hash of what's already done, changed just a little to escape patent laws, and the drugs only being backed-up by 3 in-house, most-positive-of-them-all studies. Production can be private, the research is where the most corruption is.
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lue

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4044 on: October 26, 2013, 11:51:51 am »

In related news, GOP may be in agreement with some of the ACA
The interesting thing is that, in the US, costs have tended to increase drastically whenever it moves closer towards a socialized or semi-socialized system

Please substantiate your extremely dubious proposition or retract it.

Your argument is invalid the instant it starts comparing "private insurance" costs to Medicare and Medicaid, when, in fact, private insurance is so incredibly controlled through coverage mandates (even ignoring the ACA) and statewide restrictions that it has exactly the same problems. Compare the graph provided earlier with this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not saying your point is invalid, but perhaps you shouldn't raise hay about someone comparing private insurance to Medicare/Medicaid and then immediately present a graph that does so. :)

And on the subject of pharmaceuticals, I would absolutely love (love) a law that bans the advertisement of prescription medication. You could, say, advocate awareness of a disease, but since people can't buy prescriptions of their own accord, there is no purpose advertising it! I do know the real reason is to hopefully get unfortunate saps to berate their doctor until the one with the actual knowledge has to give up and just prescribe the damn thing. That's another, practical reason to ban them.
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misko27

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4045 on: October 26, 2013, 11:54:19 am »

Antibiotics in particular need more research, because frankly they don't make a ton of money compared to say, anti-depressives, and yet are the most vital medicine we have. Let on their own, bacteria will develop ways around antibiotics, and the giving of it to cattle in large quantities isn't helping.
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Leafsnail

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4046 on: October 26, 2013, 11:56:09 am »

Pharmaceutical companies should definitely be banned from advertising prescription medicines like that.  It only serves to mislead patients and doctors.

Yes, but then the costs should generally tend to go down as the treatments become more common, manufacture becomes easier, etc. This is what happens, in, well, every single other industry as technological advances are made.
[/quote]
This is a silly comparison for the simple reason that healthcare isn't really a single "industry" - it's constantly expanding to involve more and more services, in terms of drugs and treatments.  While the costs of individual drugs and treatments may go down over time, the overall cost will increase as long as there are more and more new services to pay for.

Also oh no we will have like a dozen extra rich people taking out private insurance in our countries.
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mainiac

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4047 on: October 26, 2013, 12:08:16 pm »



Your argument is invalid the instant it starts comparing "private insurance" costs to Medicare and Medicaid, when, in fact, private insurance is so incredibly controlled through coverage mandates (even ignoring the ACA) and statewide restrictions that it has exactly the same problems. Compare the graph provided earlier with this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and it's pretty clear that the bulk of American healthcare expense increases occurred after out of pocket payment began to fall, in short, when healthcare started to become more "socialized". I can go into more detail about what specific issues the system has, but I've had this argument so many times that I'd rather not explain every little problem with the American system.

This doesn't even remotely resemble an actual comparison of healthcare payment systems.  You just picked statistics that are relating to the same general topic and showed that the trendline in that which you deem virtuous leads in the right direction.  This is the most disingenous graph you have yet to post.  Or are you actually so ignorant you don't realize that out of pocket expenses (copays) are part of the same system as insurance?  I have trouble believing this is the case unless you are a child with wealthy parents who has never paid for any healthcare in your life.

Congrats GreatJustice, you have outdone yourself.


Oh wait, you are a Canadian.  Well maybe this should be a wakeup call that you are talking about something that you are transparently ignorant about.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 12:12:48 pm by mainiac »
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shadenight123

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4048 on: October 26, 2013, 12:26:43 pm »

People. My mother is a chemist.
Hint of advice.
Don't go for 'THE' medicine shown in the advertisement.
Check what that medicine's primary principle is about, (Paracetamol, for example) And go and buy that.
Rather than getting what the society wants you to get, get what works.
Sure, it probably won't be mint/orange flavored...
But it will work just the same.

And frankly, Italy has the second best national healthcare (second only to France). We are better than you, Americans.
Where does that leave you, uh, if even Italy is better?
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Descan

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4049 on: October 26, 2013, 12:33:26 pm »

I'm pretty sure if North Korea had any health-care to speak of, they'd be better than America. :I
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