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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 839207 times)

Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3930 on: October 23, 2013, 04:26:30 pm »

We had a lot of Liberal "Radicals" in the UK in the early 19th century who were like proto-Socialists. They sympathised with the Americans but arguably they were closer to the French revolutionaries i.e. less focussed on the freedom to make a ha'penny than universal suffrage.

The English had strong Radical movements like the Chartists but in Scotland we had so much conflict at the time between our large quantity of Radicals and the state that we call that period "the Radical War". A group actually planned to stage an uprising to establish a Scottish republic with our own printed money, but the British government infiltrated the movement with spies and the leaders were hanged and possibly beheaded.

Did the USA have such a movement?

For reference, I have a popular and highly quotable song that illustrates the very left wing attitudes of the time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3931 on: October 23, 2013, 04:51:04 pm »

Other than the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War, no, I don't think so. I'm not an expert on American history, but I know starting around the 20's or 10's we had pro-fascist and pro-communist factions. The pro-fascists were kind of just checking out what Hitler was doing and the revitalization of Germany and seeing if they couldn't incorporate a bit of that into the States. The pro-communists might have given rise later than the pro-fascists, not sure, but they were pretty much ostracized and were eventually actively hunted by the government. Hunted is kind of a strong word, but the US government wanted tabs on everyone who held sympathy for Communism. The most that happened with the Communists were atomic spies that leaked information to the Soviet Union much later.

There have been occasional uprisings (this list is useful), but nothing that I'm aware of on the same scale as creating an independent territory (other than the two incidents stated at the beginning of this post, of course). Usually, when anyone tries to rock the boat too hard, someone brandishes the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence and tells them that it basically isn't going to work. The US has the relative benefit of having a solid (modern) foundation for its formation, whereas most other countries have just kind of existed forever and are vulnerable to things like fascist and communist revolutions. At least, that's from my perspective, but I think it's true.
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mainiac

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3932 on: October 23, 2013, 05:30:17 pm »

The US had plenty of popular revolts.  Shay Rebellion, Nat Turners Rebellion, the Whiskey Revolt and John Brown's Raid were some of the more well known ones from early on.  The democratic system wasn't particularly democratic even for white males until a few decades in and slavery of course stuck around until 1865.  So early on there were plenty of armed political movements.  Rhode Island in particular is a pretty interesting case, they were very oligarchic early on and didn't actually break the oligarchy completely until the 1930s when the new dealer sent the old bosses packing.  So Rhode Island had tons of liberal protests against all the corrupt crap there.

The US had plenty of radical liberal parties too.  The Free Soil Party was considered radical in it's time but eventually became mainstream as the country adopted their views and the Republicans took on their platform.  After the civil war the populist and progressive parties called for pretty sweeping changes to the way things worked.  Eventually these movements died down as progressive politicians took some of the harsher edges of capitalism, especially Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt.  And during the 60s there were mass non-violent radical liberal movements in the civil rights and hippie movements.

There was some fear of an agrarian revolt in the 1930's but generally US radical liberalism has been pretty non-violent compared to other places, especially after the civil war.  There were many mass movements, but they generally were non-violent.  I think the reason for this is that they inevitably won out in the end although it could take a while.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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misko27

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3933 on: October 23, 2013, 06:41:45 pm »

Thing is, the US system does a great job of deflecting blame for things onto states, which have a much larger importance then in other countries. As such there are actual movements to secede, hell 11 counties in Colorado recently did so, but it's from a state (no chance in hell btw, they are sparesely populated districts), and to form their own. A strong national bond exists, combined with the Federal system putting significant power in the hands of the states, that prevent significant buildup of Anti-Union tensions (let me rephrase, actual Anti-Union tensions. The people in the South are more like trying to salvage the reputation loss incurred from the Civil war that occurs if you look at it in terms of slavery).

The Left generally tends to go in the other direction, towards more centralized power, and the Right actively champions the Patriot theme in their brand. Slavery was a single issue, one that fed the southern fear of northern domination through weakening them economically, but this passed as their economy diversified during the Reconstruction.
The US had plenty of popular revolts.  Shay Rebellion, Nat Turners Rebellion, the Whiskey Revolt and John Brown's Raid were some of the more well known ones from early on.  The democratic system wasn't particularly democratic even for white males until a few decades in and slavery of course stuck around until 1865.  So early on there were plenty of armed political movements.  Rhode Island in particular is a pretty interesting case, they were very oligarchic early on and didn't actually break the oligarchy completely until the 1930s when the new dealer sent the old bosses packing.  So Rhode Island had tons of liberal protests against all the corrupt crap there.
I remember suddenly Tammany Hall, the infamous New York political machine.  It was heavily corrupt, working with Gangsters, working with Albany, which was controlled by Republicans tweaking the districts heavily, and Republican Political Boss Thomas Platt.  Heh, Ironically he destroyed himself by attempting to get rid of the new governor, a certain up and comer, by forcing him into the Vice-President side of the Republican ticket in 1900. That man was Teddy Roosevelt, who became president after McKinnley was assassinated in 1901.

EDIT: News.
  • Obamacare continues it's long trek towards glitch-free status, with Sebelius of Health and Human Resources taking the fall so far. Obama says he is "outraged" and is calling for experts to fix it.
  • Obamacare approval has inched up to 45%, proving once and for all and we are all absolutely clueless as to how America decides it likes something.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 11:53:51 pm by misko27 »
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RedKing

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3934 on: October 24, 2013, 01:19:23 am »

Thing is, the US system does a great job of deflecting blame for things onto states, which have a much larger importance then in other countries. As such there are actual movements to secede, hell 11 counties in Colorado recently did so, but it's from a state (no chance in hell btw, they are sparesely populated districts), and to form their own.

This has been a growing thing, with western Maryland talking about breaking away from Maryland, northern California joining with southern Oregon, Tucson becoming an enclave within Arizona, etc.

I read a good analysis of this recently, which pointed to the nearly-ubiquitous gerrymandering at the state level as one of the key drivers of this. Western Maryland is rural and conservative, while the Maryland state government is dominated by the urban Baltimore districts, and the state government is one of the most solidly Democratic in the country. Western Marylanders feel completely disenfranchised because they see themselves as being a perpetual minority in state representation.

Likewise, liberal Tucson feels like West Berlin, surrounded by the harsh red mass of the rest of the state.

Even here in NC, the Triangle (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill) is sort of aghast at the state legislature. The only reason you haven't seen any talk of secession is because this is a very new thing for us, and we're hoping it's just a phase. But if 2014 and 2016 leave the kind of crazy motherfuckers in power that are there now, you could see that sort of movement here.


Now it's worth noting that pretty much ALL of these state secession movements are pipe dreams. Breaking away from a parent state would require a state referendum (or similar equivalent) and the approval of Congress if they wanted to create a new state. Only instance I know of is West Virginia seceding from Confederate Virginia during the Civil War. Congress was only too happy to allow it, as it meant getting back a chunk of territory for the Union, and of course Virginia's approval was not required since there was a state of war.

East Tennessee tried to do the same, but it was a much smaller chunk of land and was never formally recognized.
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mainiac

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3935 on: October 24, 2013, 07:19:59 am »

This has been a growing thing, with western Maryland talking about breaking away from Maryland, northern California joining with southern Oregon, Tucson becoming an enclave within Arizona, etc.

As someone who has lived quite extensively in Western Maryland, I gotta say that a secessionist movement would be news to me.  The two westernmost counties would be poorer than alabama if the state government weren't propping them up (easy when the state is rich and the counties have a population of like 50k combined) but are lovely places to live thanks to the state parks, state college, state funded roads and state investments in new industries.  Next comes Washington County and Hagerstown which is doing just fine and doesn't need to change anything.  After that you are in the suburbs of D.C.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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RedKing

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3936 on: October 24, 2013, 11:08:00 am »

This has been a growing thing, with western Maryland talking about breaking away from Maryland, northern California joining with southern Oregon, Tucson becoming an enclave within Arizona, etc.

As someone who has lived quite extensively in Western Maryland, I gotta say that a secessionist movement would be news to me.  The two westernmost counties would be poorer than alabama if the state government weren't propping them up (easy when the state is rich and the counties have a population of like 50k combined) but are lovely places to live thanks to the state parks, state college, state funded roads and state investments in new industries.  Next comes Washington County and Hagerstown which is doing just fine and doesn't need to change anything.  After that you are in the suburbs of D.C.
No one said secessionists were rational. We subsidize the hell out of Alaska, which would basically be a frozen wasteland without Federal support. Doesn't stop them from having a secessionist movement.

Here's the Reuters piece on it that I originally read.


Also, since I ran across it: Ann Coulter says the GOP is being ripped off by "hucksters with egos" (while on Hannity to pitch her new book).  The irony is so delicious, I didn't even need syrup.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 11:10:44 am by RedKing »
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scriver

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3937 on: October 24, 2013, 11:14:54 am »

You still pay people just to live in Alaska, don't you?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3938 on: October 24, 2013, 11:16:25 am »

You still pay people just to live in Alaska, don't you?
Nope.
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RedKing

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3939 on: October 24, 2013, 11:22:20 am »

You still pay people just to live in Alaska, don't you?
Nope.
Sorta.

It's not "for living there", but every resident gets a dividend from the mineral rights (specifically oil), regardless of whether they're involved in the oil industry or not. Goddamn socialists.
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mainiac

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3940 on: October 24, 2013, 11:28:55 am »

Goddamn socialists.

Good thing they have Sarah Palin to protect them from the socialist who dreamed that up, Sarah Palin.

Here's the Reuters piece on it that I originally read.

The first thing I thought when I read that was "WTF, that guy doesn't even live in Western Maryland!" XD

Seriously though, while that state is geographically contiguous, it would come from stitching together two geographic areas to the east and west of Hagerstown that have more in common with D.C. than they do with each other.  Ironically the easternmost of the five counties, Carrol, would be the happiest with the arrangement.  Fredrick is happily transitioning into an urban existence and the real west has gotten itself a nice niche.  Carol is, and I'm speaking objectively here, the worst County.

They also bitch about gerrymandering but if those five counties had been a state they probably would have pulled a West Virginia, voting for Romney but electing pro-gun democrats to the Senate and state government.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 11:30:33 am by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Dutchling

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3941 on: October 24, 2013, 12:59:56 pm »

Why do your counties have people-names?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3942 on: October 24, 2013, 01:01:56 pm »

Probably because they were settled by people.
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3943 on: October 24, 2013, 01:10:11 pm »

Or settled by people who had to come up with a name and all they could think of were famous people, like generals and such.
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mainiac

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #3944 on: October 24, 2013, 01:24:46 pm »

Why do your counties have people-names?

Originally the names were named after the English aristocrats who claimed the territory during the royal charter period, Talbot, Baltimore, Dorchester etc.  Then around the time of the revolution the counties were broken up into smaller municipalities and those were mostly given to famous people around the time, Washington, Carrol, etc.  A few are just native names though, like Allegheny.

What's cool is if you drive around the back roads of the eastern shore of Maryland a bit in some of the places where the roads haven't changed in literally 300 years.  There you will find places named for the job that someone did on the ship before being the first european to put down stakes there.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 01:27:45 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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