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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[SalmonGod]

Likewise, the "we do not compromise with terrorists" belief does not warrant the same either. Because neither is willing to concede the possibility that it can be wrong, no resolution can be made.

In this case, I do not think the "do not compromise with terrorists" approach is being taken as a matter of right or wrongness on the issue itself.  The problem is republican tactics don't even allow right or wrongness or compromise to be a factor in the outcome.  Their approach has boiled down to they get what they want or they do damage.  What can possibly be done about it other than saying "No, that's not going to work.  Throw your tantrum.  It's not going to get you what you want."

[wierd]

Those are a minute apart though. 1 minute, 34 seconds actually. That's impressive delaying.

I suspect buffer bloat at the ISP is the cause.

Imagine how I feel, waiting a whole minute and a half, as the phone becomes unresponsive during the posting process.

Salmon god:
The dems, still holding a majority, could issue a law making the practice of holding the government hostage in this fashion a federal felony, by obstructing the process of government in a fashion outside that accorded to either body of legislators. I have little doubt that Obaminator would sign such a measure, and that it would have overwhelming support publicly.

There are methods of addressing the worry without comitting to a suicide pact.

[misko27]

Oh well then. That's interesting. Huh, It actually isn't that bad when you get over it. Hell there are more disturbing SCPs.* Block and move-on.

Anyway, Republicans are currently wildly unpopular at 70% Disapproval, Democrats somewhat more popular 61% disapproval, and Obama has inched up to 45% Approval and 51% Disapproval. That is exceedingly interesting.

*Tempting fate

[lue]

I don't like how either side has decided to refuse to budge. I just happen to be partial towards the Democrats, because the Republicans are throwing the equivalent of a hissy-fit with these threats. It makes me wish that the CR and debt-ceiling were opt-out rather than opt-in (that is, if we do nothing, the debt ceiling keeps increasing, rather than the other way 'round).

misko27: if you could provide a link to this poll, that'd be nice. Not that I doubt you, I just want to see it with me own eyes .

[misko27]

I don't like how either side has decided to refuse to budge. I just happen to be partial towards the Democrats, because the Republicans are throwing the equivalent of a hissy-fit with these threats. It makes me wish that the CR and debt-ceiling were opt-out rather than opt-in (that is, if we do nothing, the debt ceiling keeps increasing, rather than the other way 'round).

misko27: if you could provide a link to this poll, that'd be nice. Not that I doubt you, I just want to see it with me own eyes .

But of course. ABC-Washington Post poll. In addition, no one is getting support for the negotiations per se, but Republicans in particular have been hit hard, and Obama is simply more popular because of Democrats and Independants.

[wierd]

MAD is bad for everyone.

[misko27]

MAD is bad for everyone.

But it's better for Democrats. By a significant degree. Enough that, given a recent Politico poll, they could actually manage to retake the house in a midterm year.

[wierd]

I find the willingness to throw 7.5 billion people under the bus financially, just to wave a political penis and shout jubillantly (when such an act is not explicitly necessary) to be beyond unconscionable.

The fact that the dems are willing to consider it an option, because their polling people say they will come out on top, disgusting in the most profound sense.

[Helgoland]

It's not about coming out ahead in the polls, it's about not allowing a precedent to happen - if the tea party wins now, it would be about as catastrophical as Bush Jr. going all banana republic would-be dictator; essentially it would mean destroying the democratic foundations of the American political system. As they say in Germany regarding fascism: Beware of the beginnings!

[Andrew425]

Sometimes you gotta hold your ground and not budge.

If the democrats concede it basically means that the Republicans are the ruling party of this country regardless of who wins the elections.

[mastahcheese]

Sometimes you gotta hold your ground and not budge.

If the democrats concede it basically means that the Republicans are the ruling party of this country regardless of who wins the elections.

My thoughts exactly.

[lue]

Thanks. And to reciprocate, though I imagine the people here already have learned of this, is this hilarious poll which shows how closely most people pay attention to politics between elections (that is to say, not very closely at all).

I think what also helps the Dems more than the GOP is simply we know who started the shutdown and is now also threatening default.  People may not pay much attention to politics (see above poll), but I'd like to think, collectively, we aren't brain-dead. Granted, that's not a huge factor in the approvals, but still...

The fact that the dems are willing to consider it an option, because their polling people say they will come out on top, disgusting in the most profound sense.

Yeah, I wish this brinksmanship wouldn't be happening. At least from the Dem point of view, the GOP isn't doing this to gain anything; they just want to do the things they want without the majority of voter support you typically need. Well, actually, nobody as far as I've seen knows what the GOP wants, beyond actually just shutting things down for the hell of it. If someone could point me to a coherent argument telling me what the GOP is fighting for, that'd be much appreciated.

Sometimes you gotta hold your ground and not budge.

If the democrats concede it basically means that the Republicans are the ruling party of this country regardless of who wins the elections.

My thoughts exactly.

Ditto. The GOP just needs to understand that they lost the election, and they only have the House because gerrymandering! Sometimes parenting isn't easy, and you have to be firm.

[misko27]

I find the willingness to throw 7.5 billion people under the bus financially, just to wave a political penis and shout jubillantly (when such an act is not explicitly necessary) to be beyond unconscionable.

The fact that the dems are willing to consider it an option, because their polling people say they will come out on top, disgusting in the most profound sense.

Disgusting or not, it also makes sense on multiple levels. It sends a message the Tea-Party cannot bully or bribe people, it forces them to deal with the quite basic fact that the Democrats will not magically concede simply because they have before, and above all the US does not negotiate with Terrorists. It's quite straight-forward actually, how all sorts of different influences have combined to give the Democrats no reason to concede. They are operating from a position of power morally and politically, and the Tea Party expects the to concede and uses threats to accomplish it.

Regardless of what happens, it's the Democrats fault in the same way a Police group is responsible for the demands of terrorists holding a power-plant hostage. It could, in fact, have been avoided, but it's a concession to mad-men who can now do as they please.

[wierd]

There is nothing stopping the dems from drafting legislation that makes the actions of the TEA party officially illegal, with immediate and severe consequences.

If you make members of a party that support such an action be punishable by complete removal from office and hard jail time, you remove the obstruction, and the benefit of trying. It then wouldn't matter later who tried to do it; reps OR dems. (Note, I mean the individals themselves implicated in the action, not the party as a whole. There *are* moderate repubs who are disgusted by their tea party peers.)

Instead of going for that route, they are going for MAD.

[FearfulJesuit]

Yes, because that comes dangerously close to throwing your political opponents in jail for being your political opponents. This is just playing the Tea Party at their own, perfectly legal game, so why do anything else?