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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


Pages: 1 ... 170 171 [172] 173 174 ... 667

Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 839129 times)

Bauglir

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2565 on: October 02, 2013, 12:48:43 pm »

It's still frustrating to live in a world where people are fucked by a change in nothing meaningful. You've got the same labor pool, the same natural resources, the same technology, but one day a person can be well-fed in their own home, and the next they can be evicted and hungry, not because of anything particular to that person's life, but because "the economy" was doing badly*. It's frustrating because, at this point, a large part of the world has the technology to coordinate things without the abstractions responsible for this.

*There are a lot of intermediate steps, obviously, but this is what it boils down to.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 01:03:16 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Lagslayer

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2566 on: October 02, 2013, 01:02:32 pm »

Posting to watch, but I'm probably gonna regret it.

Leafsnail

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2567 on: October 02, 2013, 01:59:00 pm »

I'd agree with most market crashes, but the one caused by a default seems pretty obvious.  If you suddenly break a huge amount of promises for no good reason then it's hardly surprising that people would stop trusting you.
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SalmonGod

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2568 on: October 02, 2013, 02:15:57 pm »

It's still frustrating to live in a world where people are fucked by a change in nothing meaningful. You've got the same labor pool, the same natural resources, the same technology, but one day a person can be well-fed in their own home, and the next they can be evicted and hungry, not because of anything particular to that person's life, but because "the economy" was doing badly*. It's frustrating because, at this point, a large part of the world has the technology to coordinate things without the abstractions responsible for this.

*There are a lot of intermediate steps, obviously, but this is what it boils down to.

Bauglir understands what I'm saying. 

I understand why it is the way it is.  I even understand that it was necessary in the past.  But it also seems pretty obvious to me that the reasons it was necessary in the past are fading away.  Not completely gone, but quickly getting there.  But we're not evolving with these changing circumstances.

And I think most people are so very caught up in the abstractions that they completely lose touch with reality.  For example, all the millions of people who have been kicked out of their homes since 2008.  Many of them perfectly decent, productive people... for... why?  So those homes can just sit there empty?  Because a bunch of numbers that are completely disconnected from the realities of that house and the family that lived in it don't look the way some priest of the holy order of economic numbers thinks they should look?

Surely there has to be some point where we can all collectively look at the effect these made-up abstractions are having on tangible reality and say "This isn't making sense anymore.  Maybe reality should trump abstraction once in a while..."

To me it's kinda like... post-it notes.  Offices use a shitload of them to communicate and organize workload.  Even though we could manage information a hell of a lot better through our computers, they're still used because businesses are slow to adopt technology and too many office workers are slow to adopt new methods.  Even so, if the office forgot to order more post-it notes and ran out, would everyone just drop everything and run around screaming?  Because that's what this whole thing feels like to me.

And I know it's a bit of a derail, sort of, but it's also the most opportune moment to have a bit of reflection on the fundamental nature of what's going on.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

wierd

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2569 on: October 02, 2013, 02:19:29 pm »

There are many people on earth that simply cannot feel happy, unless someone else suffers for their benefit. They will bend over backwards to prevent a post scarcity society from taking root, because in such an environment, they cannot be "happy".

Sadly, such people tend to find their ways into positions of political and financial might.

That is one of the real reasons why the status quo continues. Not the only one, or even the full driving one, but it is one of them regardless.
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mainiac

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2570 on: October 02, 2013, 02:35:19 pm »

There are many people on earth that simply cannot feel happy, unless someone else suffers for their benefit. They will bend over backwards to prevent a post scarcity society from taking root, because in such an environment, they cannot be "happy".

Yeah, we are at the level of productivity where we should honestly be talking about a post-scarcity society with regards to the basics but it's not even on the radar.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

misko27

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2571 on: October 02, 2013, 03:28:45 pm »

There are many people on earth that simply cannot feel happy, unless someone else suffers for their benefit. They will bend over backwards to prevent a post scarcity society from taking root, because in such an environment, they cannot be "happy".

Sadly, such people tend to find their ways into positions of political and financial might.

That is one of the real reasons why the status quo continues. Not the only one, or even the full driving one, but it is one of them regardless.
I find that the number of people who are actively sadists are fairly low. More often, if someone suffers it is simply gravy.

But in general, the people on the eviler end of the spectrum of power tend to simply be selfish, the fact that someone else is suffering simply does not factor in. This is especially bad when they are in a place that loses power, influence, or money if a situation improves, i.e. manufacturing companies with labor, Oil with the environment, et cetera. It periodically works out that what is in the public interest is in their interest; such as many companies are worried about environmental damage, especially if they don't profit from it and/or they're business suffers with the environment; and Wall-street is very active lobbying against Shutdowns, breaking the Debt Ceiling, or things that damage the Economy as a whole. Usually, people in power are cruel because it is in their interest to be so. To quote Michael Corleone: "It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business."
It just woke up, so apologies. :D

Defaulting on the US debt, resulting in the rapid devaluation of the dollar due to loss of trust and investments going bananas.

Most multinational corporations have liquidities in the form of USD. If the currency joins the tidybowl man in oblivion at the sewerage treatment center, then they stand to get hammered hard by foriegn competitors who stayed using their own national currencies. That means allowing any politicians they may or may not have bought and paid for to continue down this road is contrary to their financial interests. In addition to that, in the long term, the resulting shockwaves of investments globally going bananas from said default will damage their long term goals and ability to continue operating, as economies go into a very dark recession, and consumer spending drops like a gold brick over jupiter.
Additionally: The Treasury department has some lee-way in exactly how the debt ceiling is handled, especially if they're willing to fudge the rules a bit, but the other options are also unattractive: A 40% cut in all US spending, Massive tax raises, partial default connected with above, or a combination of the three. Essentially everything the US would have to do to start running a large surplus, but applied instantly and without discrimination. If Obama was willing to go all the way and disregard the law entirely, he could simply "ignore" the debt ceiling, completely bypassing Congress in what would be likely a violation of the Constitution, but would save the World economy.

Anyway, Reactions so far:
1. "The Tea-party just shut down America". This view holds the republicans responsible, to some degree, for the crisis. There are varying degrees of blame and understanding, from slightly more, to blaming them solely, from the entirety of the "Republican Congress", to the Tea-Party Faction. This view is held almost unanimously by the left, much of the center, and a significant number of republicans. This is the view advanced by Democrats.
2. "Congress sucks" This view holds the entirety of Congress, possibly including Obama, and maybe even encompassing "Washington" as a whole. This very common in the center, making up about half (the other half being #1) and many republicans. This is the view advanced by the Republican establishment and many Tea-Partiers. Usually it is believed they blaming the Democrats contributes to this more then actually blaming the Democrats.
3. "So the sky didn't fall, this ain't so bad, nice try sensationalists!" This view holds that the shutdown is not so bad, and that ending non-essential parts of the government is a good idea to begin with. This view is largely advanced by the right, particularly the farther right.
There are those blaming Democrats, but it is not really a coherent view-point, more of a "blah they suck" from constituents, and the Republican leaderships rather poor attempts to blame Democrats. Largely, they are feeding the Democratic argument they are holding the government hostage through this, since "Just agree with us and the shutdown ends" is pretty similar to "hand over the money and I let them go".

As I mentioned earlier, Wall-street is enraged at the Tea Party, but due to the grass-root nature of many if not most of them, there is little they can do.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2572 on: October 02, 2013, 03:31:20 pm »

Wall Street tried to create a powerful patriot movement of highly conservative Americans....and they succeeded.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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10ebbor10

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2573 on: October 02, 2013, 04:02:02 pm »

On a side note, apparently the shutdown also furloughs 90% of the department of energy. Nuclear should be unaffected, but still...

Who invented this system anyway
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Loud Whispers

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2574 on: October 02, 2013, 04:03:08 pm »

If that were the case, you would think that the corporate masters who have bought congress critters would be telling them flat out to fix this issue NOW, and NOT default, because defaulting the dollar would RUIN EVERYONE, including the corporate masters.
Only ideological tools would stand to gain anything from defaulting the dollar.
The affordable healthcare act forces people to buy insurance from private companies.
Private companies are not united, they compete for profit.
Therefore there are people willing to strain the limits to screw over competing private companies.
The goal is not to kill America, the goal is to kill Obamacare.
They run on the assumption that either side wouldn't be stupid enough to crash America over this one thing. Of course, with both sides running on this assumption, it's a very clear dangerous game of chicken with a bullet train.

wierd

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2575 on: October 02, 2013, 04:06:23 pm »

The house is prodding a very big, sleeping bear with an electric prod.

If they succeed in waking it up by continuing to prod it in this assinine game of "chicken" they are playing, it will not only devour them, but be really pissed off and tear everyone else a new one as well.

There is no excusing this behavior. No amount of saying "them too!" Makes the prod stop being in their hands. They are the ones prodding the bear.  In that respect, the senate is doing a better job. They are both shysters in their own uniquely special ways, but the house is the one with the prod, relentlessly prodding.

If they don't stop, the bear will eventually wake up.
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10ebbor10

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2576 on: October 02, 2013, 04:07:55 pm »

On a side note, these 're the guys that decide about MAD right.

Am I glad we have no counter player at the moment.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2577 on: October 02, 2013, 04:10:46 pm »

On a side note, apparently the shutdown also furloughs 90% of the department of energy. Nuclear should be unaffected, but still...

Who invented this system anyway

quick googling suggests it was a senator from baltimore in 1869, with the bill being passed in 1870 initially

you're on your own from then
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Loud Whispers

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2579 on: October 02, 2013, 04:22:38 pm »

Oh god, we broke Alex Jones.
RIP Alex Jones, he was the greatest Lizard Illuminatus of us all.

Nice hat though.
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