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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 837588 times)

Chaoswizkid

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2010 on: September 15, 2013, 10:50:41 pm »

They are trying to consolidate all of their population together and then demolish vast swathes of abandoned residential zoning. They can't afford to upkeep the pipelines for water, they can't afford to upkeep the roads and signs and etc., they can't afford to upkeep the police and fire departments for adequate coverage. TBH the only sort of dictatorish-like move I would approve is evicting massive amounts of people (while also guaranteeing housing for them in appropriate locations closer to the city), because they cannot function like they are right now and will continue not to function until the entire city is a sprawling urban wasteland and the only people that work there are upkeepers for the tourist attraction it will become. The population must be consolidated for anything in that city to improve. That's a very logical step, and that's the only reason why I'd at all think of it as approving. This, though, this is beyond words.

Does anyone know if the President has said anything? It seems like Obama's the only one that might hold this guy accountable, because he needs to be detained and tried and sued the fuck out of and rot forever for the blatant abuse of power and careless endangerment of the lives of an entire city.
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Sheb

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2011 on: September 16, 2013, 02:48:33 am »

I don't really get the fuss. Reading beyond the propaganda piece that was linked here, it looked like a couple cables went down, threatening a general blackout if the power consumption wasn't lowered. He called some big buildings asking them to lower power use, but they didn't respond in time so he imposed controlled blackouts rather than risk a general blackout. Sure, it sucks to have the light suddenly go down in the Detroit Institute of Art, and getting stuck in an elevator ain't fun either, but all of this seems preferable to having an hospital shut down.

So yeah, the main failure seems to have been communication failure.
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2012 on: September 16, 2013, 05:17:00 am »

I don't really get the fuss. Reading beyond the propaganda piece that was linked here, it looked like a couple cables went down, threatening a general blackout if the power consumption wasn't lowered. He called some big buildings asking them to lower power use, but they didn't respond in time so he imposed controlled blackouts rather than risk a general blackout. Sure, it sucks to have the light suddenly go down in the Detroit Institute of Art, and getting stuck in an elevator ain't fun either, but all of this seems preferable to having an hospital shut down.

So yeah, the main failure seems to have been communication failure.

This was apparently only controlled by one person. This was not controlled by the respective facilities and institutions that were shut down. There was no controlled evacuation in response to an impending shut down of service, only an immediate evacuation due to sudden, unexpected loss of power. I'm sure panic was also at an all-time high, given that this was on Sept. 11th. People were carelessly endangered. That's not just a communication failure, some mistake that could have been corrected; it was intentional, given Brown's attitude. He intentionally endangered people in order to "send a strong message". Not to save hospitals or other absolutely necessary institutions that were in immediate danger, but to send a message. When asked if he gave any warning, he just said it was a detail that they didn't get into (and I only use that Fox source because they're the ones that asked the question to get that answer). That's the main fuss.

So yeah, you're right, it would have been much worse if the situation persisted and power to a hospital was cut off. I would hope that they have emergency generators in case such a thing happens. Maybe an engineered blackout was necessary. Maybe it wasn't. That doesn't matter, that's not the issue anyone cares about. What people care about is the intent, and the intent here was to force people to panic and leave them high and dry with no support during one of the hottest days for the city on the anniversary of terrorist attack that rocked the nation and then be completely unapologetic afterwards with a sense of smug righteousness.

So no, it wasn't a communication failure, because he said exactly what he wanted to say.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 05:20:27 am by Chaoswizkid »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2013 on: September 16, 2013, 07:53:00 am »

There's also WHY he was sending the message - hasn't he revealed it as his opening salvo in a bid to privatize the power production services?

Classic Republican tactic - "Everything needs to be handled privately because the government will screw it. I will prove this by gaining control of the government and intentionally screwing it up."
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Scoops Novel

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2014 on: September 16, 2013, 10:52:02 am »

There's been an attack at a Washington naval base, officially i think. 4 are reported killed with at least a policeman wounded, and witnesses claim one gunman was present while the Washington post reports 3. The area is surrounded by emergency vehicles and helicopters.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24111481
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2015 on: September 16, 2013, 12:09:27 pm »

"At the White House, Mr Obama said he mourned "yet another mass shooting" and said he sent his thoughts and prayers to the victims."

Politicised and turned into an anti-gun thing as soon as possible. What, is he going to ban handguns now? That's what they were using, besides a "long gun" which could be anything. Obama will probably find some convoluted way of turning this into a justification for high capacity magazine restriction and the prohibition of scary-looking black rifles.

This isn't just "another mass shooting" from the looks of it, there were multiple gunmen wearing military style clothes. According to the article, the implications are that they were kicked out of the Navy.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 12:12:15 pm by Owlbread »
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majikero

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2016 on: September 16, 2013, 12:11:56 pm »

What? Are you expecting report it as an attempted attack, possibly sabotage or espionage on a military base?
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2017 on: September 16, 2013, 12:13:42 pm »

What? Are you expecting report it as an attempted attack, possibly sabotage or espionage on a military base?

It could have been a terrorist attack, they could also have been disgruntled employees. The other two gunmen are on the run, the third was killed.
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majikero

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2018 on: September 16, 2013, 12:16:50 pm »

Yes, that's better to report.

TERRORIST IN THE FUCKING CAPITAL.

HONEST HARDWORKING MILITARY MEN TURNING THEIR GUNS ON THE 'MURICAN PEOPLE.
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2019 on: September 16, 2013, 12:31:26 pm »

Yes, that's better to report.

TERRORIST IN THE FUCKING CAPITAL.

HONEST HARDWORKING MILITARY MEN TURNING THEIR GUNS ON THE 'MURICAN PEOPLE.

That seems to be what has happened. Not all hardworking military men are honest of course, people should realise that by now.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2020 on: September 16, 2013, 01:01:55 pm »

Yes, that's better to report.

TERRORIST IN THE FUCKING CAPITAL.

HONEST HARDWORKING MILITARY MEN TURNING THEIR GUNS ON THE 'MURICAN PEOPLE.

That seems to be what has happened. Not all hardworking military men are honest of course, people should realise that by now.

It's even more asanine to be assuming such things than to just allow discovery of facts to occur.
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2021 on: September 16, 2013, 01:04:32 pm »

What's the matter with being completely wrong in our assumptions every now and then, Mictlantecuhtli? Seemingly things have changed - the guy whose employment "changed" recently is alive and well at his home. They may not have been disgruntled employees after all.

People are now saying that the "long gun" used by the black suspect in green/olive fatigues is apparently some kind of AR15. This is definitely going to become a gun control debate in that case.

Fake edit:


His name was Aaron Alexis, he is from Fort Worth, Texas. He was a civilian contractor working for the navy who stole the ID to get in. The white suspect (seemingly there was only one white suspect wearing a beret and military fatigues) has been cleared, whilst the police are still looking for an older black gentleman with sideburns who has allegedly shot the place up with a "long gun".
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 02:47:11 pm by Owlbread »
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GreatJustice

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2022 on: September 16, 2013, 03:45:27 pm »

Go live in the woods then. Get off the grid if you don't like it.

A state of some sort claims to "own" just about everything. I'd still be under it's control even if I was a completely independent mountain man. Besides that, the state has no legitimate claim to the things it has, it should get lost instead.

I agree that our tax dollars are improperly managed in favor of guns as opposed to butter.

The thing is, there are many things you do ask for, do need, and do use. That is also true of the public. You expect these things and would be upset if they didn't exist. Hypothetically, someone else could provide them, but realistically, they're not, because they're public goods.

Someone else could provide them, and indeed there was a time when someone else did provide them. They weren't public goods until the state stepped in and took over, generally in such a way as to run things more poorly than they were beforehand. If Starbucks was the only coffee business allowed to exist, and other coffee shops were closed down by force, it would hardly be "unappreciative" to dislike being forced to get your coffee from then or else having to go without.


And generally speaking, you agree to certain laws and regulations by living in an area, and by participating in the democratic process at multiple levels. If you don't like the way things are being managed, then take action.

I don't recall ever agreeing to anything with the state. The fact that I get to break ties on utterly irrelevant issues between two dirtbags on incredibly rare occasions doesn't count for much.

Cost-benefit is still in your favor.

They spend the money taken from people who may very well have valid uses that go towards, say, increasing capital production, and spend it on things that could be done by other people better and for less cost. The cost-benefit is very much not in my favour, unless I'm a Goldman Sachs banker, a military contractor, a high level bureaucrat or a politician.

Just because a hypothetical entity could possibly do these things does not change the fact that these things exist, and that you are and will constantly benefit from these services.
So what if I benefit from these services, I didn't ask for them to be provided by the heavy hand of the state and the fact that the state provides them at all crowds out more productive services that otherwise would exist.

Since I don't need to go into detail about how murdering people is obviously harmful, my response to your straw argument is as follows:

Robbing people is harmful too, but when the state does it it isn't called "robbery". You can think up a better word for it if you prefer or even simply replace it with "imprisonment" or "seizing 99% of their assets", it really doesn't matter.

I'm asking you to explain how we take this idea and apply it to modern, current times.

...The only reason it doesn't exist in modern times is because the state regulated the services it provided to the point where it was unfeasible to continue running. Part of this was because major insurance companies, healthcare providers, etc didn't like the competition, and part of it was because the government thought that people in mutual aid associations were a bunch of villainous Communists. In the absence of state intervention in these areas, it would likely still exist.


And his life after it was better than before it, too.

Any given American's life was better in Year X + Y than in Year X, generally speaking. That's because, even in a "mixed economy", technological progress can generally at least partially overcome whatever idiotic barriers the government creates. It's worth mentioning that the New Deal didn't work very well, though, seeing as how the Depression was significantly longer than any other economic recession in American history and only really ended after the Second World War.

Chaining and locking the doors to the stairs shut was also part of the problem, and the guy went on to continue to do so even after the fire. And the whole thing about doors that were supposed to open outwards, too. Also, there's the whole "There was a strike to protest working conditions years before the fire" thing, too.

I'm (obviously) not saying they were evil people who deliberately went out of their way to make a firetrap, I'm saying that steps taken to improve efficiency lead to deaths.

On that particular incident it's actually debatable whether the doors were locked or not, since apparently the policy was changed that day and the doors were unlocked, but the workers assumed that they were. Anyhow, the fact of the matter is still that the working environment was unsafe because the owners wanted to increase efficiency by running things in a "loft" rather than a "factory" because of the extra regulatory costs of running a "factory", so it still comes back to NYC's building codes.


Notice the general lack of food poisoning? And yeah, treating the symptoms instead of the disease can only do so much.

Sure, that can generally be ascribed to improvements in food treatment that occurred over the course of the 20th century, especially improvements in refrigeration. In this particular case, though, the food wasn't unsanitary because the meat packers tended towards being unsanitary, it was unsanitary because the meat packers were politically connected and could get away with it (and, indeed, they mostly did). Later FDA regulation, from then on until this day, had less to do with "protecting consumers" and more to do with "protecting gigantic pharmaceutical/food production corporations".


Try to not selectively read what you want to knock down straw opponents. There is a difference between hot coffee and third-degree-burn inducing coffee.
Ugh, arguing about the "Hot Coffee!" warning on coffee cups is going to go nowhere, so I'm gonna drop this one.

It's poorly regulated. Don't get me started on the Fed.

It's "poorly regulated" in the sense that the regulators and the regulated are basically one and the same, and the banks are immune to any and all consequences thanks to support from the relevant Federal agencies, but none of those problems will be solved by "more regulations" unless you plan on nationalizing the banks and completely reforming the financial system.

Yeah, only 27 people died from those fires. And they did try to get around safety regulations, as well as punitive damages. Arguably, this is a case of setting foxes to watch the henhouse.

Did you even read the study provided? It was about as dangerous as any other car of similar design from the same period.

Five internet bucks says you've never had to use them. Speaking as a person who had to, I can safely tell you the ability to eat food improved my life in noticeable manners.
Oh, buddy, you don't even know. A "safety net" is all well and good until the day you realize that you can buy less and less shit with the money you get while the lazy motherfucker that intentionally looks for ways to get more (by, say, having a whole bunch of kids they won't properly take care of) is doing better, and you realize that you really aren't getting a great deal because you're basically being paid a little bit to shut up about all of the ways in which you're being screwed over. Plus, there comes a point when it becomes unfeasible financially to even keep such programs running, and then what happens to the people stuck on them?

When the poor exploit the system, they're horrible. When the rich exploit the system, they're paragons of humanity.

Well no, the rich created the system in the first place, and they benefit quite a bit more in the long run. Welfare systems are just convenient ways to keep the poor in line while they get screwed over in hidden ways.
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misko27

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2023 on: September 16, 2013, 03:52:56 pm »

"At the White House, Mr Obama said he mourned "yet another mass shooting" and said he sent his thoughts and prayers to the victims."

Politicised and turned into an anti-gun thing as soon as possible. What, is he going to ban handguns now? That's what they were using, besides a "long gun" which could be anything. Obama will probably find some convoluted way of turning this into a justification for high capacity magazine restriction and the prohibition of scary-looking black rifles.
Hahaahahah, You joking? Please? Could anyone be so damn ignorant of the past 5 years to think Obama will push through sweeping gun reforms because of this particular massacre? A guy shot 20 children with a semi-automatic, that didn't pass anything. There was a period where gun massacres were happening every half month. Hell in Colorado 2 state senators were just recalled for supporting a gun measure (A opponent of the gun measure called one of them and said "I really hate your new plan, I can't sell my guns at a Garage sale"). And the governor of Missouri just barely managed to Veto a bill stopping the Federal Government from enforcing gun laws there.

Seriously, do you think there is any real enforcement, any at all, at the Federal Level? The City of DC had a ban of Handguns overturned by the Supreme Court. You are legally allowed to own a concealed handgun in every state in the Union. Where do you get a justification for something like that? Congress can't pass things with Broad Bipartisan support, let alone things remotely controversial. Obama has not passed a single piece of Gun Legislation, ever. Even in the wake of the Sandy Hook Massacre. And no one outside of the most liberal state capitals has even considered a bill to ban Handguns.

Sure, this will raise up the issue, but with everything else going on, It'll be forgotten. There'd need to be a even larger massacre then the ones we've seen (maybe 50 people or more, a little less then double Sandy Hook), with some extraordinary circumstances (like, I don't know, it happening at a gun show), to actually manage to move through the political resistance.





Anyway, Fatalities are now at "at least 12", one shooter is apparently dead. There is one man remaining on the run, although with the chaos this could turn out not to be the case. This is the largest attack on a US mainland military base since the 2009 Fort Hood (Which killed 13). The breach in security is considered very serious, given you need 2 separate ID to get in. There are a additional wounded, who number at least to my knowledge at least 3.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 03:55:28 pm by misko27 »
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2024 on: September 16, 2013, 04:07:39 pm »

I must say that I was incorrect in my initial pronouncement of them "using handguns", they were carrying both handguns and, allegedly, AR15s.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You may notice I was asking the question incredulously as a rhetorical question rather than as a serious question. That said, I'd be surprised if no bills were passed involving restrictions on various things unrelated to mass shootings like high capacity magazines or folding stocks or something, you know, the whole "assault weapons" thing. They'll do their best to find something they can do; some kind of action.

It will, of course, have no effect on mass shootings because based on my incredibly superficial wikipedia research; of the 12 "notable" mass shootings that have happened in the 2010s only 4 at the most involved some kind of gun that would be considered an "assault weapon". The rest used guns Obama would have no problem with, predominantly handguns. The most common weapon used in mass shootings (school shootings excluded) are apparently handguns, usually some kind of Glock, probably because they're common. As for school shootings, semi automatic rifles have become more common since Sandy Hook, but far more common are shotguns and pistols, even a bolt action hunting rifle in one case. Indeed, these are the guns that Obama and Biden advocate.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 04:14:48 pm by Owlbread »
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