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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[10ebbor10]

There's really no point in having a UN reform thread until both China and Russia have significantly reformed.

And the US, and Europe. No system is perfect.

[Helgoland]

Well, that's what reform is all about - and I guess that in a pinch atomic hate could do as a substitute

Also Putin's a dick.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There's really no point in having a UN reform thread until both China and Russia have significantly reformed.

And the US, and Europe. No system is perfect.

The US, UK, and France are all stable electoral democracies, which would currently be open to major changes to the UN regardless of their faults in other fields. China and Russia are the current problem children of the UNSC's Permanent Membership. Russia more so than China, as the latter is beginning to come closer and closer to having a common purpose with the US.

[10ebbor10]

I don't know about that. The US would very much like to retain a right to override decisions, the UK doesn't want to be forced to do anything, and France might just leave. Not the first time they did that. I mean, there's a reason NATO HQ is found in Belgium.

And yes, China's opening up. They kinda need to, or the country will be destroyed by internal trouble.

[FearfulJesuit]

Guys...Syria discussion 'n' related tangents...please give it its own home. Thank you.

[Owlbread]

This particular tangent was more about isolationism in America which led to discussion of UN reform, not Syria.

[FearfulJesuit]

OK, fair enough. Carry on unless it gets too big for the thread to bear.

[Gervassen]

And yes, China's opening up. They kinda need to, or the country will be destroyed by internal trouble.

Not a chance. Any China watcher will tell you that "opening up" scenario has zero probability. Document Number 9 is the reality of China under Xi Jinping. That fluff about reform will never happen. A western pipe dream.

Did you really think a princeling was going to be elected and actually be a reformer? A son of the old guard? Maoism is back, baby, and if internal troubles happen, that's what tanks are for. CCP still knows where the power blooms.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Maoism is most certainly not back. If China actually reintroduced Maoism the world economy would suffer a collapse that would make people yearn for the days of 2008. China's wealth is from it's massive (and capitalist) industrial faculties.

[Gervassen]

Yeah, that's your conventional wisdom, alright. Sounds like the average westerner who's got the world all figured out. Every country just wants to be western deep down, right? Care to scrape past the surface and get into the political weeds on this issue, and tell me how the SOEs benefit from further reform? The SOEs are the powerbase of the CCP. Reform is not going forward.

Maoism is being revived. Not fully and all at once, but the shift is clear. If you know China, then you are aware that Mao was never denounced. At most, the formulation was 3 parts wrong, 7 parts right. Never denounced. Fucker is on every single yuan note from ¥1 to ¥100. What you want--and what you naively believe is the universal want of every nation--is not actually what Chinese leaders want. Your interest is not their interest. Repeating the conventional wisdom that you soak up from western sources will make you seem like a genius on many topics, but in regards to knowing Chinese politics, parroting western assumptions gets you nowhere fast.

I like how I drop mention of Document Number 9 just to see whether anyone cares to search further about this important memo before voicing expert opinions, and clearly no one does.

Fine! You win, Bay12. You win.

PS. China is not capitalist. SOEs form about 60% of the economy. You can't buy land, only rent it from the government for 70 years. In China, this distinction is clear. Only westerners think there's capitalism in China.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yeah, that's your conventional wisdom, alright. Sounds like the average westerner who's got the world all figured out. Every country just wants to be western deep down, right?

Sounds like you're just the average fervent reactionary who believes his nation will never undergo change.

Care to scrape past the surface and get into the political weeds on this issue, and tell me how the SOEs benefit from further reform? The SOEs are the powerbase of the CCP. Reform is not going forward.

The SOEs benefit from economic reform because it gives them more room to profit, obviously. It's the same reason any business venture wants more independence, even state capitalist ones such as these.

Maoism is being revived. Not fully and all at once, but the shift is clear. If you know China, then you are aware that Mao was never denounced. At most, the formulation was 3 parts wrong, 7 parts right. Never denounced. Fucker is on every single yuan note from ¥1 to ¥100. What you want--and what you naively believe is the universal want of every nation--is not actually what Chinese leaders want.

Mao not being denounced has nothing to do with anything. That Mao is still honored culturally does not speak in any way to the level of adherence to his policies. Which they aren't. Mao didn't exactly endorse the idea of state capitalism that SOEs represent.

Your interest is not their interest. Repeating the conventional wisdom that you soak up from western sources will make you seem like a genius on many topics, but in regards to knowing Chinese politics, parroting western assumptions gets you nowhere fast.

It isn't conventional wisdom, it is what is obviously going on. Nobody outside of China is buying the propaganda about this.

I like how I drop mention of Document Number 9 just to see whether anyone cares to search further about this important memo before voicing expert opinions, and clearly no one does.

When the first search result for a document is Infowars, the second is the New York Times, and the third is a Yahoo opinion piece, it is pretty safe to say it is not that important.

PS. China is not capitalist. SOEs form about 60% of the economy. You can't buy land, only rent it from the government for 70 years. In China, this distinction is clear. Only westerners think there's capitalism in China.

PS. SOEs are capitalist and the PRC hasn't even existed for 70 years yet.

[Gervassen]

Most of those assumptions are wrong, but since you are not in a state of mind to actually benefit from anything that challenges your weak assumptions, then correcting it would be pointless. I will simply commend you on knowing everything about everything without actually needing to read important stuff that is "only in the NYT and not important" and wish you godspeed.

[Owlbread]

So that was basically "everything you said is wrong but you're so stupid I won't even bother telling you how you're wrong"? Very mature Gervassen, very mature.

Chinese capitalism is rather like Russian democracy in that it is "managed", but it does exist.

[Chaoswizkid]

China's economy is considered "mixed". It's not capitalist, but it's also not purely communist.

As for "Capitalism is right, and everyone should aim for that!", that's pretty much a reality of the post-Cold War era. Communism failed, capitalism won, countries that adopted capitalist policies flourished, if for no other reason than everyone was more willing to trade now that they were all mostly on the same page. That's not an opinion on what is right or wrong, that's just the facts of the situation.

No one's really fully one way or the other, anyway. The US and other members of the West are typically mostly capitalism with a bit of socialism. China (and I think Russia but I'm not sure) are typically socialist with a bit of capitalism.

Also, Gervassen, you sounded reeeaaaallllyy sarcastic with

Did you really think a princeling was going to be elected and actually be a reformer? A son of the old guard? Maoism is back, baby, and if internal troubles happen, that's what tanks are for. CCP still knows where the power blooms.

but now you sound really serious. Which are you?

[ggamer]

If Maoism was back, wouldn't China be FUBARed by now?

We are in the incorrect state of mind to understand whether or not Maoism is back, apparently.