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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 833419 times)

XXSockXX

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1440 on: June 08, 2013, 09:04:18 pm »

I don't believe government is always evil.  I believe it's dangerous.  And the U.S. government has given me countless reasons to not trust it.
At least the US government has - for a democracy - a really bad history of ignoring international law and breaking other countries laws. As an US citizen you can be happy about that, but I wonder what US citizens would think if foreign governments collected their communication data (or killed people in US territory for that matter).
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1441 on: June 08, 2013, 09:36:48 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


I'm mostly worried that it took 11 years and a British newspaper to remind people that the PATRIOT act and other authorizations for such activities exist. I'd like them all repealed. Here's my suggestion to take a whack at it, we can call it the Bay12 Privacy Bill Brainstorm:

[Insert title here]
Article 1, Section 1.) No entity, public or private, may collect or utilize private information of, or pertaining to, U.S. citizens without a search warrant.

I don't write laws, but you get the point. I'm mad to see that companies like Facebook and Google are openly selling our information to the government's Military-Industrial-Surveillance branch. Not that I didn't suspect and know this was likely happening the entire time. Just glad people care again. Now hopefully they do something?

Also, for the record, I think we're all quite reasonable. Me? Not so much.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 09:45:11 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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XXSockXX

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1442 on: June 08, 2013, 09:45:05 pm »

Article 1, Section 1.) No entity, public or private, may collect or utilize private information of, or pertaining to, U.S. citizens without a search warrant.
From what I understand PRISM collects data only from foreigners, not US-citizens. EU laws about data collecting are a bit more restrictive than US laws, and the US is apparently breaking them.
Not that I'm seriously worried that US authorities can read what porn stuff I look up on Google, but I wouldn't wanna get taken off an international flight for some stupid shit I might write in a skype chat or something.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1443 on: June 08, 2013, 09:47:50 pm »

Article 1, Section 1.) No entity, public or private, may collect or utilize private information of, or pertaining to, U.S. citizens without a search warrant.
From what I understand PRISM collects data only from foreigners, not US-citizens. EU laws about data collecting are a bit more restrictive than US laws, and the US is apparently breaking them.
Not that I'm seriously worried that US authorities can read what porn stuff I look up on Google, but I wouldn't wanna get taken off an international flight for some stupid shit I might write in a skype chat or something.

It can pertain to US citizens AFAIK, there's also that Verizon phone record selling to the government bit. Not very specific nor targetted.

I don't care if endgame goal is to sift through and find a fellow calling his cousin Ismael in Miami, you still collected 100% of people's records to find it out.
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Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
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SalmonGod

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1444 on: June 08, 2013, 10:29:10 pm »

I don't believe government is always evil.  I believe it's dangerous.  And the U.S. government has given me countless reasons to not trust it.
At least the US government has - for a democracy - a really bad history of ignoring international law and breaking other countries laws. As an US citizen you can be happy about that, but I wonder what US citizens would think if foreign governments collected their communication data (or killed people in US territory for that matter).

I could be happy about the US breaking international laws and violating other countries sovereignty and plenty of other people are, but I'm not.  There's also plenty of history of the US bending, re-writing, or secretly disregarding its own laws to victimize its own people.  Even without that history, so long as it's willing to do one, I will remain suspicious that it would also be willing to do the other.

From what I understand PRISM collects data only from foreigners, not US-citizens.

I could tell you this wasn't true long before information leaked on the PRISM and phone data collection programs.  There has been a wealth of evidence that the surveillance apparatus is mainly directed inwards, and the information gained has been acted on plenty of times.  Since the Occupy encampments were all evicted, there's been some big reveals about how the same federal surveillance infrastructure meant for fighting terrorism was direct at shutting down the protests.

And the leaks about PRISM also indicate that the majority of it falls on domestic citizens, under the pretense of collecting information on foreigners.  The leaked info specifically stated that they look at people who are suspected(!) of having communication with foreign targets, and anytime a suspect is investigated, they also review all the data on people up to "two hops" from the suspect.  That means anyone who has had contact with the suspect, and then anyone who has had contact with anyone who has had contact with the suspect.

The phone data collection stuff revealed that they simply ordered verizon to hand over complete metadata about any and all calls made from within the country, whether they communicated with anyone outside the country or not.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 10:30:50 pm by SalmonGod »
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XXSockXX

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1445 on: June 08, 2013, 10:46:07 pm »

Yeah, it seems unlikely that they wouldn't collect data from their own citzens too. And sure, it's about principles, I might be objectively safer if my government assassinates a citizen who is a proven terrorist, but what if one day they decide they don't like me anymore.

What really worries me is how incompetent authorities seem with actually using that data. They had a lot of info about the Boston bombers for example, even had one of them arrested before. And still it seems like they only got caught because someone identified them and they acted pretty stupid themselves. So far I haven't seen much in terms of making the world safer with all this surveillance.

US security is pretty weird anyway, for a non-tourist visa I have to declare that I wasn't involved in WW2 crimes, which is easy because that happened before my parents were born...

The EU seems a bit better, internet providers are only required to store 3 months of data, and that can only be used with court order. (Well, if the secret services don't get it anyway, but I haven't heard of that so far).
We had a thing called the Bundestrojaner (the federal trojan), a program that should be used by the police to spy on suspects. It didn't really work and they abandoned it pretty much after media outrage.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 10:51:32 pm by XXSockXX »
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10ebbor10

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1446 on: June 09, 2013, 12:41:22 am »

Well, it's not the first time this happens. You know how airline companies have to transfer their passenger data for US in and outbound flights. That system was in place for several years before the EU finally changed it's laws and actually allowed it. Don't put your hopes up of the EU commission acting against PRISM. Worst they'll do is put some bureaucratic red tape around several EU-US agreements, but that's all.
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Sheb

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1447 on: June 09, 2013, 05:03:42 am »

Ad we European aren't totally innocent of groos spying either. Just look up at that link someone passed a few days earlier, about Sweden giving access to all internet traffic going through the country to its military intelligence service.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1448 on: June 09, 2013, 07:58:22 am »

I will restate this point:  what reactions have you seen?
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10ebbor10

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1449 on: June 09, 2013, 08:01:32 am »

Nihil, Nada, Non.

No mention anywhere in the papers, nothing.
Edit: Managed to scrounge up some articles. Only thing they mention is Obama ensuring everyone that Americans don't get spied upon. Not even the slightest reference that Europeans do get spied upon.*

*Which, btw, is a breach of all national and European laws and guidelines.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 08:06:48 am by 10ebbor10 »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1450 on: June 09, 2013, 08:04:29 am »

Does anybody reasonable (e.g. not SG or GG) have a statement to make (not the gov't is always evil types)?  Like say, RedKing or Mict?

I'm ... not a government is always evil type. >_> I like most of the government. Fuckin' hell, I'm a fan of the IRS and think they should get a bunch more funding, you don't find many people like that. But I also like laws and rules and consistency, and I don't like it when the government breaks it's own laws. I like government, just not the criminals in congress and the administration that are currently running it.

I don't trust them, but there are DAMNED good reasons for that. I don't think you can really deny that. But I'm not an anarchist or anything - in fact, I'm far from it. I think a strong government is incredibly important.

I like government, but I consider corruption one of the worst and most unforgivable of crimes, worse than rape or murder, so that may be why it sometimes seems that I don't like ours very much. But I really do like most parts of government, and the parts I dislike are... well.. you know that 85% of the country dislikes many of those parts as well, right? (15% approval rating for congress...)
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misko27

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1451 on: June 09, 2013, 09:36:45 am »

I like government, but I consider corruption one of the worst and most unforgivable of crimes, worse than rape or murder, so that may be why it sometimes seems that I don't like ours very much. But I really do like most parts of government, and the parts I dislike are... well.. you know that 85% of the country dislikes many of those parts as well, right? (15% approval rating for congress...)
Rammusen gives me a 6% approval rate by everyone but Latinos, who are very focused on the Immigration bill right now, and are slightly higher (although I can't get exact numbers).
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palsch

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1452 on: June 09, 2013, 09:42:57 am »

I'm still trying to put together the whole PRISM thing, but it looks like the information originally published by the WaPo and Guardian was flat wrong in quite a few ways. I need to pull together more sources to actually get a good model of it though.


Somewhat clearer is the phone records being obtained through a FISA court order.

The order requires Verizon to turn over it's complete call records database to the NSA. This is a recurring order, renewed every 90 days since at least 2007. These records are essentially call metadata; number A called number B at time X from location Y. They don't contain the content of the calls and to my knowledge there is no way to collect such knowledge.

This information is not traditionally viewed as private. May sound odd, but under Smith v. Maryland pen registers (devices that log but don't record calls made from a phone) are legal to use without a warrant. As such the government can legally build such call records on a given phone without any fourth amendment issues.

The expansion of that to requesting the complete logs of Verizon under a FISA order is less clear. This post covers part of the important question, along with this follow up;
Quote
Because we have only the order itself, not the application that underlies it, we don’t know the government’s exact legal theory here. But I have a hard time imagining the application that could have produced it without authorizing programmatic collection of just about any data for any investigative purpose at all. Section 215, codified in law as 50 U.S.C. § 1861, allows the government to apply to the FISA court for an order for production “of any tangible things . . . for an investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities. . . .” To acquire such an order, the government does not have to do much—just as it doesn’t have to do much in a criminal investigation: It merely has to offer, in pertinent part, “a statement of facts showing that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the tangible things sought are relevant to an authorized investigation . . . to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.”

So presumably, the theory would have to be that the “tangible things” here are the giant ongoing flood of data from the telecommunications companies and that they are “relevant to an authorized investigation,” perhaps of Al Qaeda, “to protect against international terrorism.” That reading seems oddly consistent with the statutory text, which may be why the intelligence committee leadership seems so comfortable with the program.
This is a very expansive theory as far as FISA goes. You could extend this reasoning to gathering pretty much any information that may theoretically be useful in the future.

That said, it is worth noting that the DNI statement regarding the data collection talks about minimisation procedures that apply to the information gathered. That is, the government can create the database but can't use it unless they meet a legal standard;
Quote
    By order of the FISC, the Government is prohibited from indiscriminately sifting through the telephony metadata acquired under the program. All information that is acquired under this program is subject to strict, court-imposed restrictions on review and handling. The court only allows the data to be queried when there is a reasonable suspicion, based on specific facts, that the particular basis for the query is associated with a foreign terrorist organization. Only specially cleared counterterrorism personnel specifically trained in the Court-approved procedures may even access the records.
According to Orin Kerr this doesn't seem to be the legally required standard (see again Smith v. Maryland) but rather a more stringent requirement applied by the FISA courts. They seem to be treating a search of the database (of potentially non-private data) as a Terry stop-and-search. This makes sense to me given the power of such searches to reveal information that a single pen register type record might not. Searches of such a database should be more strictly protected than the information in isolation.

So to break this down again, the government is collecting all possibly relevant data then only reviewing that data that becomes relevant as opposed to gathering only the relevant information.

Thinking about this from a spycraft point of view, this is incredibly attractive. Let's say you want to track a certain set of calls to try to pin down a certain terrorist group. If you had to issue a court order for such information to be passed over every time you would be revealing what you know about the group, even if only to the telephone company and under apparent secrecy restrictions (the same secrecy restrictions this particular order was under...). The chance of where you were looking being revealed might not be huge, but it's there.

If instead you have the database internal already and only have a general renewal every few months then you have less chance of a leak (like this one) blowing open ongoing surveillance programs. This revelation says a lot about how the US does it's surveillance and what sorts of tradecraft it is working to defeat, but nothing about any actual operations.

It does require a great deal of trust in the government holding such a database both for them not to abuse it and to keep it secure (although in this case only as secure as the teleco that originally held it). In this case all three branches have oversight (although FISA courts rather than general courts), so plenty of theoretical checks and balances working to keep them honest. But I doubt that's enough for many people.


It's worth noting that this whole thing appears to have replaced the original Bush warrantless wiretapping scheme. The timeline matches and such a system would achieve many of the stated goals of the original overreaching scheme with far fewer civil liberty or fourth amendment problems.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1453 on: June 09, 2013, 09:57:21 am »

Quote
I'm still trying to put together the whole PRISM thing, but it looks like the information originally published by the WaPo and Guardian was flat wrong in quite a few ways.
Of course, we have no actual way to know this. And THAT is the worst part of all of this. There's no way for anyone not directly involved, even congress (they passed a law that functionally said they weren't allowing the government to tell them anything about it) to have any idea how this actually works.
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palsch

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #1454 on: June 09, 2013, 10:47:38 am »

OK, so things still aren't that clear on PRISM, but this is the most plausible outline I've seen so far.

Given the various references to PRISM that have turned up (including job adverts) it does sound like it's a tool for handling classified data rather than a classified program in and of itself - even before taking the government statements about this at face value. That also fits with how all the parties involved have responded. Google/Facebook/etc. would never have heard of it. They would have received FISA requests for information that just happen to be processed through a tool called PRISM. It's possible they didn't even know there was a single specific tool being used (outside maybe requests to format their data in a way compatible with it).

From the government's point of view it would be like being accused of running a tax evasion scheme called Excel.
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