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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[Descan]

Rule One of Politics: What something looks like, it is.

It's why I'm never going into politics myself.

But if Black Nationalism looks like racism, then it is racism. Even if it isn't. And then you won't get elected.

[RedKing]

Except that *any* kind of political ideology in the US which includes racial nationalism is going to be met with incredible hostility by mainstream America and charges of being "anti-white", "radical", "extremist", "dangerous", "racist", etc. Look at La Raza as an example from the Hispanic side.

Even white nationalism is pretty much viewed as beyond the pale in most polite circles.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's because racial nationalism is racist. Period. Forget the "anti-white" bullshit, there's no way to argue that separating people into racial enclave nations isn't based on racist ideals.

This is why Liberia exists.

[Owlbread]

Perhaps by black nationalism I may be getting mixed up with the terminology and that's what has set some of you off (those were some hefty accusations you were levying at me earlier on, Mr. SlimeHunt. Separatism in the USA is near enough dead, but I've got better things to do than try to "break up other people's countries"). I was thinking more of the "nationalism-lite" kind of shit we've had in the UK where we promote culture, music, language and so forth from an "African American perspective", albeit within a greater racial tapestry of the USA. I understand I'm playing with fire here but I'm trying to look at this pragmatically; the only groups to really endorse outright socialism on a level that could be built on were black americans and certain working class white people back in the 20s and 30s. In order to get a basis for a far-out ideology like blatant socialism, you need to find the places that don't fit the normal patchwork - areas that may as well be on the moon. Detroit is one such place.

Nationalism is also pretty bad, you realize.

You have said this on many occasions in threads that we have both posted in and yet you never really seem to justify that view properly. Please do.

[GreatJustice]

A Party with it's power based on rural black population would be doomed to failure. Besides African Americans only making up 15% of the nation, not to mention that a good number of black people ARE NOT in the ghetto, nobody would ever take you seriously above the small scale with a power base from inner cities. And any sort of support for Black Nationalism would be the death of the party. I'd broaden the scope at the very least, and include any sort of impoverished minorities as well as trying to drum up support from poorer white people.
But I don't think you really understand the divide in the ghetto at all. Its a lot more complex than just poor African Americans in the inner city somewhere, and between racial conflict and "white flight" having your power base in the ghetto would be damning.

African Americans only make up 15% of the population but they also make up 82% of the population of Detroit, the overwhelming majority. Don't kid yourself - the majority of people in the ghetto are black. That's just the sad fact. In the UK, we've got quite multicultual impoverished areas, although they often have a white majority. The areas in the USA I'm thinking of would be former Socialist (Black Panther Party) power bases.

There is racism, then there is nationalism. They are often combined but are not inseperable. Black nationalism, if championed in a way that did not make it anti-white, is not racism, just promotion of black identity, culture, language, music etc. I think in order to really make an impact in black areas that are as bad as Detroit, you would need to do something quite radical - you're going to be clashing with a culture that's been developing for decades and is really quite deeply set. Harkening back to the old days may be the only way to break through that.

I also make this prediction - black people in the USA will eventually feel marginalised in politics after the focus in minority politics shifts heavily towards Hispanic people, as it should do, seeing as they will form a growing majority in many states. Maybe socialism, if led by the right kind of figureheads, would be perfect for their group.

Secondly, African Americans as a demography are economically liberal, but socially conservative. I wouldn't expect an acceptance of blatant socialism, given how even liberal Americans react to the word, regardless of the concept.

I don't think that's very significant. Many of the countries that were openly Socialist in the 20th century, or at least had strong Socialist factions, were very socially conservative. Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, Scots, Welsh, Northern English, Poles, the list goes on.

Detroit, especially downtown (non-suburban) Detroit, is an odd place politically. It's actually been getting whiter over the years as hippies buy up chunks of land for grow ops and survivalist types buy up dirt cheap property and bring their guns to deal with the crime. Basically no one pays taxes, the city government is horribly crooked and bankrupt, and anyone who does pay their taxes is probably paying more in taxes than they would have paid for the property. It's solidly Democratic, but it you could probably find ideologies of every stripe if you looked around a bit.

[RedKing]

That's because racial nationalism is racist. Period. Forget the "anti-white" bullshit, there's no way to argue that separating people into racial enclave nations isn't based on racist ideals.

This is why Liberia exists.

And Israel. Just sayin.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's because racial nationalism is racist. Period. Forget the "anti-white" bullshit, there's no way to argue that separating people into racial enclave nations isn't based on racist ideals.

This is why Liberia exists.

And Israel. Just sayin.

I don't disagree. I've written on here about why this makes the one-state solution important before. Integration is hard no matter where it happens, but it brings a kind of peace that is stable and can change ideas that have been held for centuries.

[Onlyhestands]

African Americans only make up 15% of the population but they also make up 82% of the population of Detroit, the overwhelming majority. Don't kid yourself - the majority of people in the ghetto are black.

I probally wasn't very clear, but I never said it wasn't. My point was your power base would still wind up less than 15% of the population, which is still very small.

That's just the sad fact. In the UK, we've got quite multicultual impoverished areas, although they often have a white majority. The areas in the USA I'm thinking of would be former Socialist (Black Panther Party) power bases.

No
NO
NO
The Black Panthers have an awful reputation today, and it's well deserved. Don't fool yourself. I don't even see the point in getting into this.

There is racism, then there is nationalism. They are often combined but are not inseperable. Black nationalism, if championed in a way that did not make it anti-white, is not racism, just promotion of black identity, culture, language, music etc. I think in order to really make an impact in black areas that are as bad as Detroit, you would need to do something quite radical - you're going to be clashing with a culture that's been developing for decades and is really quite deeply set. Harkening back to the old days may be the only way to break through that.

That's a very very very fine line to tread. Even if the movement itself isn't inherently racist it'll likely be seen as racist by the outside community.

Perhaps the answer isn't go for black nationalism outright but try to harken back to the Marxist ethos of the old black nationalist groups that were once very powerful in black communities. Maybe a sense of continuity was all I was thinking of.

Once again, no no no no-NO. Its a good thing nationalist groups in the US are on their way out.

Of course - this isn't to say that, as MetalSlimeHunt says, one couldn't target both New England and black majority areas. That said, it would be difficult to unify the two factions.

And I'm a New Englander btw. This is not only one of the whitest areas in the nation, but also one of the most liberal, socially & economically. I don't feel much if any connection to ghettos or inner cities at all, culturally, racially, economically, politically etc etc. I wouldn't want to be lumped into the same political group as that, and I don't think many people here would disagree with me.

[misko27]

"I love the smell of sequestration in the morning, *sniffs*, Smells like VICTORY."

[Owlbread]

Detroit, especially downtown (non-suburban) Detroit, is an odd place politically. It's actually been getting whiter over the years as hippies buy up chunks of land for grow ops and survivalist types buy up dirt cheap property and bring their guns to deal with the crime. Basically no one pays taxes, the city government is horribly crooked and bankrupt, and anyone who does pay their taxes is probably paying more in taxes than they would have paid for the property. It's solidly Democratic, but it you could probably find ideologies of every stripe if you looked around a bit.

This is why I think it's perfect for political experimentation.

By the way, these are some pretty bloody strong knee jerk reactions we've had here. I've seen fonts of varying sizes, "no no no no", accusations of wanting to break up the USA because I'm Scottish (pesky Scots with their agendas)... jesus christ I'm just speaking about a hypothetical situation from a political, amoral perspective.

Once again, no no no no-NO. Its a good thing nationalist groups in the US are on their way out.

And I'm a New Englander btw. This is not only one of the whitest areas in the nation, but also one of the most liberal, socially & economically. I don't feel much if any connection to ghettos or inner cities at all, culturally, racially, economically, politically etc etc. I wouldn't want to be lumped into the same political group as that, and I don't think many people here would disagree with me.

Yes, that's why I started to do a U-Turn. I realised as I was writing the post that if we did target black communities and try to bring about a sense of continuity with black nationalist groups (it seemed to work to an extent with gangster rap), we'd just alienate the white majority areas to the point that it would be hard to do anything with the power base we would gain. Still, I think it's a given that where the Socialist Party finds its power base in the initial stages will determine its future greatly. I think a lot of inner city people would say the same in response to yourself about feeling a connection.

To let you understand, I was working more on the kind of vague aspiration that if an American Socialist Party could say "Well we fixed Detroit, we can fix your state too", it might help to legitimise them. It would be impressive.

[RedKing]

"I love the smell of sequestration in the morning, *sniffs*, Smells like VICTORY."

Yeah, it's looking like we're all gonna get a big ol' whiff of that. 

[Nadaka]

The military cuts are not THAT deep. There is probably only a 10% chance it affects me seriously, and theoretically my contract is paid for until next year anyway.

[Descan]

I don't want to put words in Kais mouth, but nationalism could be seen as bad as it's a division of people based on a fluke of where they were born, nothing they themselves ever did or likely contributed to.

Counter-point to that, is of course that culture is taught on a geographical basis (I.E. the culture you were taught in Scotland is probably different than the culture in Poland) so that any differences based on nation is linked to the fluke of where someone is born.

Or something. I'm distracted. Don't mind me, hun.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

By the way, these are some pretty bloody strong knee jerk reactions we've had here. I've seen fonts of varying sizes, "no no no no", accusations of wanting to break up the USA because I'm Scottish (pesky Scots with their agendas)... jesus christ I'm just speaking about a hypothetical situation from a political, amoral perspective.

I don't think you want to break up the USA because you're Scottish, I think you want to always insert separatism into politics, no matter how irrationally, because you've become enamored with it in your personal life. You yourself have stated before you think Balkanizing large nations is a good thing.

[GreatJustice]

Detroit, especially downtown (non-suburban) Detroit, is an odd place politically. It's actually been getting whiter over the years as hippies buy up chunks of land for grow ops and survivalist types buy up dirt cheap property and bring their guns to deal with the crime. Basically no one pays taxes, the city government is horribly crooked and bankrupt, and anyone who does pay their taxes is probably paying more in taxes than they would have paid for the property. It's solidly Democratic, but it you could probably find ideologies of every stripe if you looked around a bit.

This is why I think it's perfect for political experimentation.

By the way, these are some pretty bloody strong knee jerk reactions we've had here. I've seen fonts of varying sizes, "no no no no", accusations of wanting to break up the USA because I'm Scottish (pesky Scots with their agendas)... jesus christ I'm just speaking about a hypothetical situation from a political, amoral perspective.

Us "radicals" have it hard around here

I don't really see the problem with self governance. Honestly, barring the installation of a fascist dictatorship, I don't think one could make the Detroit government any worse. Self sustaining socialist communes in Detroit are fine by me.