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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 832189 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #375 on: February 28, 2013, 11:37:21 pm »

Clinton trended the Democrats to a more centrist position to survive following the rise of the Reaganites, but now that this particular breed is starting to self-destruct I imagine we'll see the Democrats return to being left-wing. The Neo-New Left, I suppose.

How quickly and how powerfully that happens probably depends on how long the wingnuts hold onto the GOP before either they are expunged or the party fractures under the pressure and flies apart in different directions.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 11:40:44 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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SalmonGod

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #376 on: March 01, 2013, 02:09:38 am »

Clinton trended the Democrats to a more centrist position to survive following the rise of the Reaganites, but now that this particular breed is starting to self-destruct I imagine we'll see the Democrats return to being left-wing. The Neo-New Left, I suppose.

How quickly and how powerfully that happens probably depends on how long the wingnuts hold onto the GOP before either they are expunged or the party fractures under the pressure and flies apart in different directions.

Needs to happen if the legitimacy of the nation's politics is to survive.  I think a major source of political resentment and apathy from my generation and younger is because we are more left-leaning, and thus find almost zero true representation of our beliefs and attitudes in government.  Not that this is a new phenomenon, but it's been especially pronounced in recent history.
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #377 on: March 01, 2013, 06:11:14 am »

Liberalism in the eyes of the world is actually a centrist ideology. What American needs on top of a developed liberal faction in mainstream politics is a developed socialist faction.
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bulborbish

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #378 on: March 01, 2013, 09:30:35 am »

Liberalism in the eyes of the world is actually a centrist ideology. What American needs on top of a developed liberal faction in mainstream politics is a developed socialist faction.
Before this can happen, Socialism needs to stop being such a insult/attack that it is used for right now (I mean, come on America, we've been socialist for 75 years and you still can't accept it).

With this discrepancy in line, a Socialist Party would have to fall under the Democratic Wing, and for Conservatives likely be the Tea Party Extremist Counterpart.

Zangi

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #379 on: March 01, 2013, 10:36:15 am »

So... that sequester thing.

There should be a betting pool or something.

A) Kicked down the road, again.  1 to 1
B) Gonna let it happen.  2 to 1
C) A deal is actually going to happen?! 100 to 1

I might have the numbers switched around.... but you get the idea.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #380 on: March 01, 2013, 11:05:06 am »

Liberalism in the eyes of the world is actually a centrist ideology. What American needs on top of a developed liberal faction in mainstream politics is a developed socialist faction.
Once again, Owlbread, I remind you that American Liberalism is not the same thing as European Liberalism, and is closer to socialism than the neoliberalism you are thinking of.
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Dutchling

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #381 on: March 01, 2013, 11:07:24 am »

Liberalism in the eyes of the world is actually a centrist ideology. What American needs on top of a developed liberal faction in mainstream politics is a developed socialist faction.
Once again, Owlbread, I remind you that American Liberalism is not the same thing as European Liberalism, and is closer to socialism than the neoliberalism you are thinking of.
Err. You'd think he's talking about American Liberalism, as European Liberalism is definitely not a centrist ideology. Well, current European Liberalism at least.
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RedKing

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #382 on: March 01, 2013, 11:16:41 am »

So... that sequester thing.

There should be a betting pool or something.

A) Kicked down the road, again.  1 to 1
B) Gonna let it happen.  2 to 1
C) A deal is actually going to happen?! 100 to 1

I might have the numbers switched around.... but you get the idea.
Yeah, not really sure. The Tea Partiers and "let it all burn" factions in the GOP have been weakened of late, so there's probably even less chance of B than there was before. But probably not enough bipartisanship to get a deal done. So yeah, I'm going with A.
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #383 on: March 01, 2013, 01:20:47 pm »

Before this can happen, Socialism needs to stop being such a insult/attack that it is used for right now (I mean, come on America, we've been socialist for 75 years and you still can't accept it).

With this discrepancy in line, a Socialist Party would have to fall under the Democratic Wing, and for Conservatives likely be the Tea Party Extremist Counterpart.

I accept that definitions of what is Liberal and what is Left-Wing differ from place to place (in Europe liberal parties are mostly centrist or centre-left), but why would an American Socialist Party have to fall under the Democratic Wing? Why can't it be independent and try to gain control on a local government level rather than going straight for the white house? Surely the Tea Party Extremist Counterpart could be served by a very strong Liberal faction, if American Liberals are indeed as left wing as they have been described.

If I was starting an American Socialist Party, my first target audiences would be African Americans in ghettos and African American majority cities like Detroit. The emphasis would be placed on using socialism (perhaps with factional representation for black nationalism) to combat gang violence, drug dealing and promote economic growth. If a power base can be built around these areas then it is possible to build on it from there.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 01:31:36 pm by Owlbread »
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Onlyhestands

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #384 on: March 01, 2013, 01:46:37 pm »

A Party with it's power based on rural black population would be doomed to failure. Besides African Americans only making up 15% of the nation, not to mention that a good number of black people ARE NOT in the ghetto, nobody would ever take you seriously above the small scale with a power base from inner cities. And any sort of support for Black Nationalism would be the death of the party. I'd broaden the scope at the very least, and include any sort of impoverished minorities as well as trying to drum up support from poorer white people.
But I don't think you really understand the divide in the ghetto at all. Its a lot more complex than just poor African Americans in the inner city somewhere, and between racial conflict and "white flight" having your power base in the ghetto would be damning.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 01:51:05 pm by Onlyhestands »
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RedKing

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #385 on: March 01, 2013, 01:56:53 pm »

Except that many poor rural whites have been solidly in the GOP camp for decades on the basis of religious and social issues. That was the Devil's bargain of the grand realignment of the 60's and early 70's. Prior to the Civil Rights movement, poor rural whites were overwhelmingly Democrats because the Republican party was seen as the party of rich white people. Class was more predominant of an issue prior to 1964. After 1964, the WHITE part beat out the RICH part and rural whites began changing party ID like crazy.


Basic problem is, there's not enough of a blue-collar class in the US that isn't already trumped by some other self-identification, such as black, Latino, or white nativist. Socialism is a party ideology built around class first, and class hasn't been nearly so important in American politics since about 1964. It's making something of a comeback, but it'll be a long time before you see another Eugene Debs.

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #386 on: March 01, 2013, 02:16:14 pm »

I accept that definitions of what is Liberal and what is Left-Wing differ from place to place (in Europe liberal parties are mostly centrist or centre-left), but why would an American Socialist Party have to fall under the Democratic Wing?
Because it pretty much already is.
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Why can't it be independent and try to gain control on a local government level rather than going straight for the white house?
Because third-parties don't work under the US electoral system, even locally.
Quote
Surely the Tea Party Extremist Counterpart could be served by a very strong Liberal faction, if American Liberals are indeed as left wing as they have been described.
The Tea Party is part of the GOP for the same reason that all American socialists worth anything are Democrats. Here's what happened to the ones that tried to go independent.
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If I was starting an American Socialist Party, my first target audiences would be African Americans in ghettos and African American majority cities like Detroit. The emphasis would be placed on using socialism (perhaps with factional representation for black nationalism) to combat gang violence, drug dealing and promote economic growth. If a power base can be built around these areas then it is possible to build on it from there.
Ok, first off, you want to use racism to found a socialist party? Black nationalism is not a good thing. It is no better than white nationalism. And both are quite thankfully dead in the US.

Secondly, African Americans as a demography are economically liberal, but socially conservative. I wouldn't expect an acceptance of blatant socialism, given how even liberal Americans react to the word, regardless of the concept.

You can only succeed as someone who calls themselves socialist in the more liberal areas of New England. It's just a word, a word that is so thoroughly stigmatized that there is no reason for Americans not to just stick with liberal, as we have since the New Deal.
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Owlbread

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #387 on: March 01, 2013, 03:18:39 pm »

A Party with it's power based on rural black population would be doomed to failure. Besides African Americans only making up 15% of the nation, not to mention that a good number of black people ARE NOT in the ghetto, nobody would ever take you seriously above the small scale with a power base from inner cities. And any sort of support for Black Nationalism would be the death of the party. I'd broaden the scope at the very least, and include any sort of impoverished minorities as well as trying to drum up support from poorer white people.
But I don't think you really understand the divide in the ghetto at all. Its a lot more complex than just poor African Americans in the inner city somewhere, and between racial conflict and "white flight" having your power base in the ghetto would be damning.

African Americans only make up 15% of the population but they also make up 82% of the population of Detroit, the overwhelming majority. Don't kid yourself - the majority of people in the ghetto are black. That's just the sad fact. In the UK, we've got quite multicultual impoverished areas, although they often have a white majority. The areas in the USA I'm thinking of would be former Socialist (Black Panther Party) power bases.

There is racism, then there is nationalism. They are often combined but are not inseperable. Black nationalism, if championed in a way that did not make it anti-white, is not racism, just promotion of black identity, culture, language, music etc. I think in order to really make an impact in black areas that are as bad as Detroit, you would need to do something quite radical - you're going to be clashing with a culture that's been developing for decades and is really quite deeply set. Harkening back to the old days may be the only way to break through that.

I also make this prediction - black people in the USA will eventually feel marginalised in politics after the focus in minority politics shifts heavily towards Hispanic people, as it should do, seeing as they will form a growing majority in many states. Maybe socialism, if led by the right kind of figureheads, would be perfect for their group.

Secondly, African Americans as a demography are economically liberal, but socially conservative. I wouldn't expect an acceptance of blatant socialism, given how even liberal Americans react to the word, regardless of the concept.

I don't think that's very significant. Many of the countries that were openly Socialist in the 20th century, or at least had strong Socialist factions, were very socially conservative. Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, Scots, Welsh, Northern English, Poles, the list goes on.

Of course - this isn't to say that, as MetalSlimeHunt says, one couldn't target both New England and black majority areas. That said, it would be difficult to unify the two factions. Perhaps the answer isn't go for black nationalism outright but try to harken back to the Marxist ethos of the old black nationalist groups that were once very powerful in black communities. Maybe a sense of continuity was all I was thinking of. I'm sure talented propaganda artists could succeed with that.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 03:33:04 pm by Owlbread »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #388 on: March 01, 2013, 03:25:33 pm »

There is racism, then there is nationalism. They are often combined but are not inseperable. Black nationalism, if championed in a way that did not make it anti-white, is not racism, just promotion of black identity, culture, language, music etc.
I think you're just biased about this because of Scotland. There is no reason to try and stir up nationalist separatism within a peacefully integrated nation.

You do know what concept you're talking about, right?
I also make this prediction - black people in the USA will eventually feel marginalised in politics after the focus in minority politics shifts heavily towards Hispanic people, as it should do, seeing as they will form a growing majority in many states.
I also make this prediction - black people in the USA will eventually feel marginalised in politics after the focus in minority politics
I also make this prediction - black people in the USA will eventually feel marginalised in politics
marginalised in politics
Did....did you miss the memo or something?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 03:28:31 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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kaijyuu

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #389 on: March 01, 2013, 03:26:49 pm »

Nationalism is also pretty bad, you realize.
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