Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[Morrigi]

We have about as many rifles as we do handguns - roughly 115 million each, with most of the rest being shotguns.

[Sergarr]

In the long term, I'd actually be more wary of somebody forming an insurgency against the current government in USA.
It'll be easier than in normal countries, because the population is already armed to teeth.

[Frumple]

Yeah, but if things progress apace, by that point the local police would have sub-orbital killsats as part of their loadout and civilian insurgency would be dealt with via electric or kinetic death from on high. Or drone swarms or whatev'. Unless things go sincerely tits up, by the time genuine civilian insurgency is a possibility in the states autonomous tech -- drones, et al -- will have advanced to the point it wouldn't matter how many civilians with rifles you have (just like it barely matters now), the forces they'd be trying to work against would be able suppress them without meaningful effort.

Seriously, the future is not one where civilian firearms become more relevant.

[Bauglir]

I've gotta be honest, the Federal government implementing gun control worries me a whole lot less than State governments implementing it (which in turn worries me less than local governments, but I mention that only to complete the spectrum, as I don't think anybody's mad enough to think that's a good idea). Just basing this on the propensity for corruption and abuse that precedent seems to have set - however bad it is at the Federal level (and it's pretty bad), States are, at best, a crapshoot with a distribution centered on the Federal degrees of douchebaggery.

[Loud Whispers]

Don't worry, an army capable of invading mainland USA would probably have enough artillery for all of them.
Then again, an army capable of invading mainland USA doesn't exist.

China + shovels = Asia gets bigger and by invading America a land war in super asia would begin.

Seriously, the future is not one where civilian firearms become more relevant.

Don't worry, advances in civilian defence drones are being made with incredible progress! The democracy shall be uphold by the vigilance of robotic guardians!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[mainiac]

Let's just pray the government doesn't develop inch high barrier technology.

[Morrigi]

Yeah, but if things progress apace, by that point the local police would have sub-orbital killsats as part of their loadout and civilian insurgency would be dealt with via electric or kinetic death from on high. Or drone swarms or whatev'. Unless things go sincerely tits up, by the time genuine civilian insurgency is a possibility in the states autonomous tech -- drones, et al -- will have advanced to the point it wouldn't matter how many civilians with rifles you have (just like it barely matters now), the forces they'd be trying to work against would be able suppress them without meaningful effort.

Seriously, the future is not one where civilian firearms become more relevant.

People here in the U.S. having their friends and families get droned will make things worse, not better. Regardless of that, you always need boots on the ground to control an area, it's a fundamental fact of guerilla warfare.

Also, somebody has to operate the drones, and those people would be legitimate military targets.

[Loud Whispers]

Let's just pray the government doesn't develop inch high barrier technology.

Robot wars have taught me that there's nary a barrier that a flipper and fly wheel cannot cross. For freedom!

[Morrigi]

Yeah, but if things progress apace, by that point the local police would have sub-orbital killsats as part of their loadout and civilian insurgency would be dealt with via electric or kinetic death from on high. Or drone swarms or whatev'. Unless things go sincerely tits up, by the time genuine civilian insurgency is a possibility in the states autonomous tech -- drones, et al -- will have advanced to the point it wouldn't matter how many civilians with rifles you have (just like it barely matters now), the forces they'd be trying to work against would be able suppress them without meaningful effort.

Seriously, the future is not one where civilian firearms become more relevant.

People here in the U.S. having their friends and families get droned will make things worse, not better. Regardless of that, you always need boots on the ground to control an area, it's a fundamental fact of guerrilla warfare. The owners of those boots are vulnerable to small-arms fire.

Furthermore, I have sincere doubts that the military would mindlessly obey orders like that. I'd bet money that significant numbers of officers and their units would refuse their orders, or even defect outright.

[Frumple]

I'm... not sure why you copied your previous post like that, but regardless, who said anything about the military? I wouldn't really expect the military to get meaningfully involved in insurrection attempts in the future -- the chances of any not getting nipped in the bud (Probably violently, by overenthusiastic police) before they became much of an issue is pretty small. State/federal forces are already frankly terrifying in their capability and willingness to track and suppress civil disobedience, and that's without going full jackboot or working in the face of an actual violent insurrection attempt.

Seriously, when you've got cases where the local cops are better equipped than the national guard, and trending towards even heavier*, and showing quite a large amount of willingness on the national scale to do exactly the things along the lines being discussed, the military's involvement is arguably of secondary concern. Even if they did get involved, it would be defecting military (and, far more importantly, their subsequently stolen hardware) that made the difference -- not civilian gun ownership.

Though again, future being what it probably is, by the time something like a civil insurrection in the USA is even the most remote of possibilities, jackboot forces would likely only need a very small portion of loyal forces (so long as they maintain control of the hardware, which hey, that's what security tech and whatnot is for) to maintain ground control. Drones are a helluva thing already, never mind what's almost certainly coming in the future.

It's just... seriously. Civilian firearms stopped being able to meaningfully do anything against even a halfhearted attempt at full blown oppression years ago, and they're becoming more trivialized by the day. The whole "defense against tyranny" aspect of gun ownership is a joke, and honestly in kinda' bad taste. People who think that's actually going to make a difference if tyranny happens (well, happens more, anyway) are more likely to make poor decisions regarding preventing it from happening, at least from what I've seen.

*As per acquisition attempts re: current drones and heavy equipment, never mind whatever the future brings -- I know we've got legged ground drones already working pretty well (have since a few years back, at least), and they're already producing drones specifically designed to handle civil disturbance. Another decade or three and stuff specifically designed to slice through crowds and invade homes is incredibly damn likely, as is their introduction into normal police use to the extent drones being used on civilians don't raise many eyebrows.

[Loud Whispers]

It's just... seriously. Civilian firearms stopped being able to meaningfully do anything against even a halfhearted attempt at full blown oppression years ago, and they're becoming more trivialized by the day. The whole "defense against tyranny" aspect of gun ownership is a joke, and honestly in kinda' bad taste. People who think that's actually going to make a difference if tyranny happens (well, happens more, anyway) are more likely to make poor decisions regarding preventing it from happening, at least from what I've seen.

1. Asymmetric warfare.
2. Suicide.
3. Fleeing.
The three are enabled by civilian arms.

[Frumple]

If you expect much of 1 to be able to happen in the US, and even more, for it to make a difference, I have many bridges to sell you. It takes a hell of a lot more than just having firearms to pull off asymmetric warfare, and a junkload beyond that to actually get anything done with it.

Points on 2 and 3, though. I figure we'd be able to OD en masse about as as easily for the suicide option, though. Possibly even cost less.

[Baffler]

Points on 2 and 3, though. I figure we'd be able to OD en masse about as as easily for the suicide option, though. Possibly even cost less.

I dunno about you, but I don't think I'd particularly care how much the bullet I shoot myself with cost. For fleeing though, I would definitely consider it. If only because of the need to balance the higher caliber round I would need to cause damage to someone in body armor with the amount of ammunition I could buy/carry.

[Angle]

Honestly, I really hope things don't get anywhere near that bad. We're only a little ways away from turning into Afghanistan if that happens.

[Loud Whispers]

If you expect much of 1 to be able to happen in the US, and even more, for it to make a difference, I have many bridges to sell you. It takes a hell of a lot more than just having firearms to pull off asymmetric warfare, and a junkload beyond that to actually get anything done with it.
Points on 2 and 3, though. I figure we'd be able to OD en masse about as as easily for the suicide option, though. Possibly even cost less.

1. There are enough people with understandings of social media, social engineering and more than enough people preparing for such scenarios for them to already make a difference. The only thing you truly need is the will and weapons to fight, as shown by successful and failed insurgencies. Trying to reason supposed powerlessness by volunteering on yourself definite powerlessness is a strange line of reasoning, and very pessimistic.
2. It'd cost you half a dollar to out yourself with an average bullet, no method of suicide is easier and trying to OD through pills is a lot more riskier.
3. Fleeing is fleeing.