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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 838795 times)

Sergarr

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8535 on: August 28, 2014, 02:13:40 pm »

You understand that if Ukraine gets conquered by Russia, it will get a big fat land border with Poland, Slovakia, Romania and Hungary?

And all these countries (except for Poland) are a part of NATO that have very little in the way of NATO land forces AFAIK.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8536 on: August 28, 2014, 02:20:12 pm »

Not to mention that the nations in question (especially Poland) have a long history of being annexed by their neighbors and abandoned by their nominal allies. If they were to suddenly border an expansionist Russia again, they'd probably start howling for every gun in NATO to be sent there. Combined with the Ukraine's threat earlier this year to redevelop nuclear weapons as a guarantee of territorial integrity, this mess (especially as there's indications of it spilling into Moldova) is very, very much a NATO problem.
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Darvi

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8537 on: August 28, 2014, 02:24:33 pm »

Yeah, but you know how people are. 's somebody else's problem until then.
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RedKing

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8538 on: August 28, 2014, 02:33:31 pm »

Damn Russians. Not only do they invade Ukraine, they keep invading the US politics thread.
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Lagslayer

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8539 on: August 31, 2014, 11:32:52 am »

Helgoland

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8540 on: August 31, 2014, 04:27:35 pm »

Must... crush... capitalism! RAWR!
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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8541 on: August 31, 2014, 06:16:19 pm »

Eh, just remember that "we keep shitty records" bit is in part because we've got folks that are actively and substantially undercutting any attempts to keep records. Damn hard to collect and collate data when parts or the whole of the data collection, collation, and retention, is illegal or utterly resource starved.

Always suggested to me that whatever data exists is not favorable to the NRA-style folks, but who can say?
Except the FBI DOES keep records, and they show under 400 homicides with rifles as the weapon used each year. That's less than half the amount of people who get beaten to death without a weapon, considerably less than people killed with blunt weapons, and about 20% the amount of people killed with blades.

Also, why do people care about mass shootings so much when dozens of times more people get killed in inner-city violence? Mass shootings are a drop in the bucket, and all the attention (media especially) we give them only encourages more.

Also, in the United States, there are certain things that will never change in our lifetimes, barring extreme circumstances such as civil war, a coup, or some other event that drastically changes the balance of power.
1. Guns will never be banned.
2. Guns will never be confiscated on a national scale.
3. Banning handguns in cities does fuck-all, and may even make crime worse. (Chicago, Washington D.C.)
4. Even if the government did try to confiscate them, vast amounts would be "lost" in "tragic boating accidents" and the like, or, in many states, turned on those trying to confiscate them.
5. With access to a machine shop, firearms can be mass-produced by just about anyone who knows how they work, and knows how to use the equipment. This already happens in Australia and the U.K. as well as various third-world countries.

For those of you who aren't American or may otherwise be unaware, it would also be very, very illegal to ban firearms at the national level, since it is written into the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution, primarily as a defense against tyranny. The Amendment can only be changed if
1. Both the House and Senate propose an Amendment, supported by a 2/3 majority, OR a Constitutional Convention is called and 2/3 of the individual states support the proposal. The latter has never passed an Amendment.
2. The proposed amendment will not become law until 3/4 of the states ratify it.
That... will never happen, not without armed revolt in many parts of the country.


There is also a fact that many people (everywhere, not necessarily on this forum), seem to be overlooking. Since the 1990's, homicides across the country have plummeted by 50%, and are the lowest they've been since the 1950's.

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls
Other source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2008-2012.xls
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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And to close, there is absolutely no correlation between the number of firearms owned by civilians and the homicide rate on a state-by-state basis, unless you decide to cherrypick figures that agree with you, or use meaningless terms like "gun deaths", which also include suicides and thus massively throw off statistics.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8542 on: August 31, 2014, 06:38:39 pm »

You forgot to include the number of deaths from firearm accidents, which is much more than any kind of homicide-relate death.
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Graknorke

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8543 on: August 31, 2014, 06:48:00 pm »

You forgot to include the number of deaths from firearm accidents, which is much more than any kind of homicide-relate death.
What about suicides?
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Baffler

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8544 on: August 31, 2014, 07:05:17 pm »

You forgot to include the number of deaths from firearm accidents, which is much more than any kind of homicide-relate death.
What about suicides?

Did you even read the post? He is talking specifically about murder. Suicides and accidents are not murder, and were therefore not counted. It's right there, even.

Quote
And to close, there is absolutely no correlation between the number of firearms owned by civilians and the homicide rate on a state-by-state basis, unless you decide to cherrypick figures that agree with you, or use meaningless terms like "gun deaths", which also include suicides and thus massively throw off statistics.
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Reelya

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8545 on: August 31, 2014, 07:22:08 pm »

The argument that "gun deaths" skews the deadliness of guns assumes that the gun suicide rate (which is about twice the gun homicide rate) would be the same in the absence of guns. Evidence from other countries shows this is not necessarily true. Restriction of guns in Israel cut the national suicide rate by 40%, I think that was around 2005.

This shows that many, if not a majority of gun suicides are dependent on having an easy way out, and not having access to guns would lead to a permanent reduction in suicides. It seems people are much more willing to shoot themselves than use other methods.

So, sorry, gun suicides / total gun deaths, are not a "red herring".

Sergarr

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8546 on: August 31, 2014, 07:23:33 pm »

The problem is not in guns, it is in people who abuse them.
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Graknorke

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8547 on: August 31, 2014, 07:29:11 pm »

You forgot to include the number of deaths from firearm accidents, which is much more than any kind of homicide-relate death.
What about suicides?
Did you even read the post? He is talking specifically about murder. Suicides and accidents are not murder, and were therefore not counted. It's right there, even.
Did you even read the post? I was clearly not talking about murder. Accidents and suicides are obviously not murder, so it shouldn't be hard to figure out that's not that I was talking about something else. I was talking about suicides, the word I posted. It's right there, even.
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Reelya

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8548 on: August 31, 2014, 07:32:52 pm »

The problem is not in guns, it is in people who abuse them.

By that logic, nothing is a problem at all. Give everyone surface to air missiles and fragmentation grenades. After all, they're only a problem if people abuse them.

Of course, the logical error is that given millions of people, it's inevitable that they will get abused, or stolen by those who want to abuse them. Can you guarantee that nobody can break into your house and steal those guns you use so carefully? You can't be home all the time protecting your gun collection.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 07:36:04 pm by Reelya »
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Frumple

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8549 on: August 31, 2014, 07:34:42 pm »

The problem is not in guns, it is in people who abuse them.
Nah, guns actually do make quite a lot of things worse, by virtue of being considerably better at killing than most other things. Take guns out of the equation, or make them a considerably smaller part of it, and suicide rates go down, a lot of violent crime becomes considerably less likely to result in fatalities, accidental gun deaths obviously drop, etc., so forth, so on.

Part of being a responsible gun owner is realizing that, yes, by owning this object you are making the world a categorically more dangerous place. Calling guns "not the problem" is not part of that.
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