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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


Pages: 1 ... 384 385 [386] 387 388 ... 667

Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 832024 times)

misko27

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5775 on: January 25, 2014, 04:48:46 pm »

I think it's time I call you guys out on an assumption you guys are making. Poor Frumple said it outright, so he gets the scrutiny.
Oh, to be fair, there's still some pretty bloody malicious things being done with that data, far beyond personalized advertisements -- you better damn sure believe scammers and con artists leaning on social engineering are using it to find targets*, and that's without getting into stuff like what some corps get up to outside the border or the types of pressure some of them roll out in certain situations. There is still plenty of abuse and room for abuse, some of it pretty damn nasty, that data collection either allows or aids and abets.

Corp abuse is less likely to end up with you in jail, though. Destitute, homeless? Sure. In the hospital or dead? Occasionally (and it's considerably more likely with gov. abuse, as we've seen with counter-protest activities). But usually not dragged out of your house and home and thrown into one of the world's worst prison systems (if we're sticking with the US, of course), with all that entails.

Still can get pretty bloody bad, but it's comparatively less of an issue (and arguably one you'd have more trouble legislating against.), which is potential reason to focus on government use before dealing with commercial if they can't be fixed in one go.

*Big data is pretty much the exact reason my grandparents constantly get calls from bastards trying to rip 'em off.
All in all, quite logical. Well thought out. The argument is "Government should not be able to do X but Corporations can", because "Government is oppressive, Corporations are at worst scammers". Makes sense. I'm not necessarily agreeing with it, but it certainly stands up to scrutiny. You say corporations are merely scammers, and provide arguments. But wait a moment:
Quote
...But usually not dragged out of your house and home and thrown into one of the world's worst prison systems (if we're sticking with the US, of course), with all that entails.
This is quite a serious accusation, and the very crux of your argument (I make no claims that it is your personal argument, certainly the others argue for it more. You simply say it very openly); and yet, no evidence. At all. You just say it. You assume it to be true. A big fat old [CITATION NEEDED] sitting literally at the heart of your claims. I don't think this is common knowledge, and it is very, very serious thing to say; not to be made lightly. And yet, nothing. I know that, here at the Conspiracy theorists corner of Bay12, you can get a pass on that. But I am going to need some evidence.

Let's take a look at a little bit shall we? And not at whether the NSA is "legal" or "ethical"; I'm not saying that. I'm protesting the assumption that the government is using this to arrest people. First, a google. "NSA arrests" lead straight to infowars, never a good start. The other highlight is MSNBC interrupting a NSA interview for news of Bieber's arrest, managing to be even less relevant. A more direct "How many people have been arrested because of the NSA" leads to the Washington Post blog denouncing claims by the NSA that has "foiled numerous plots", which sites evidence by the Guardian, saying only a single incident lead to arrest: That of a cab driver sending money to a tribal middle eastern group listed as terrorists. Not exactly many people being "dragged out of their homes and being thrown in the worst prison system" (an honor that likely belongs to North Korea, but I digress). The documents are from of course Edward Snowden, the paragon, who clearly has all the reason in the world to highlight improper uses of the system. It goes on to describe how the NSA was in fact wire-tapping the hijackers on 9/11; and utterly failed to do anything but listen. Clearly, not the mark of a competent oppressive agency. At worst, the Italian fascists to Germany's Gestapo: losers.

Certainly very serious accusations, but ones that completely undermine the malevolent image Frumple Highlights. Now, I could go on to point out the huge evidence of the NSA's incompetence, but I don't think it's necessary. I have not heard backing up of political targeting. At least, with proof. Evidence. Googling "NSA dissidents" leads you to a few conspiracy sites, and an RT article on the NSA spying on Dissidents, Back in the Vietnam war. Not one thing from the Washington Post, NY times, Guardian, hell even Snowden. The evidence shows nothing more then that the NSA is utterly incompetent and a massive waste of money, as well as stepping on various constitutional limits. But not conspiracy.

So, no. I don't believe any of these claims. I know most of you already believe the government is terrible, but I need more then beliefs and feelings. I like to imagine Bay12 is better then infowars, so please, I invite proof. And not proof that "the NSA is intrusive"; that is very clear. I want proof that the NSA is targeting activists, dissidents, the opposition; anything political. And if not, expect any arguments resting on that premise will be sliced through: remember Occam's brother, Hanlon's Razor? "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I think that needs to be remembered.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 04:54:36 pm by misko27 »
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SalmonGod

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5776 on: January 25, 2014, 05:20:17 pm »

Part of our problem here is you keep assuming that your opposition's statements are leveraged against the NSA exclusively.  They're not the only government surveillance program.  I and others are talking about government surveillance in general, and there has been plenty of evidence floated around the forum of government surveillance in general being abused in tangible ways.  And as I said before, you must take into account how all these agencies and their various surveillance programs have been linked together over the last 10 years.  I have no reason to believe that the NSA doesn't participate in this.
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Frumple

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5777 on: January 25, 2014, 05:27:44 pm »

... as SG noted while I was going about digging through the Occupy thread for some links*, I wasn't talking about the NSA alone, Misk. If you extend your search beyond that, stuff starts popping up.

*Such as this'un, another SG post listing out a number of past events that involved (if perhaps not ubiquitously) government surveillance of varying degrees. Or the second link in this post, sure.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 05:34:53 pm by Frumple »
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misko27

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5778 on: January 25, 2014, 05:41:47 pm »

Part of our problem here is you keep assuming that your opposition's statements are leveraged against the NSA exclusively.  They're not the only government surveillance program.  I and others are talking about government surveillance in general, and there has been plenty of evidence floated around the forum of government surveillance in general being abused in tangible ways.  And as I said before, you must take into account how all these agencies and their various surveillance programs have been linked together over the last 10 years.  I have no reason to believe that the NSA doesn't participate in this.
I like the fusion center article:
Quote
A two-year senate investigation found that "the fusion centers often produced irrelevant, useless or inappropriate intelligence reporting to DHS, and many produced no intelligence reporting whatsoever."
And then mentions a few cases of rights violations. Not pleasant (or particularly damning) stuff, but certainly more in favor of the "IC is stupid and ineffective" (IC meaning the general US Intelligence Community) camp then "IC is evil" camp.

As for the thing by the liberal research group - who I must add managed to net "come from the far side of liberal" from the Village Voice, a newspaper I know a bit about, and knowing what I do, getting that from them impresses me - I don't have time to review right now, but I have my reservations.
... as SG noted while I was going about digging through the Occupy thread for some links*, I wasn't talking about the NSA alone, Misk. If you extend your search beyond that, stuff starts popping up.

*Such as this'un, another SG post listing out a number of past events that involved (if perhaps not ubiquitously) government surveillance of varying degrees. Or the second link in this post, sure.
I have digging to do later, but I am going to go on record that as far as I know (as someone who lives in New York), all the actions against the protestors in Occupy and the RNC are a local issue; i.e. a product of the same police force that gave you Stop & Frisk and was run by our former mayor: Bloomberg, 13th richest man in the world, and general enemy of anti-capitalists (Our public unions have been operating on the old contracts for several years now, trying to wait him out.)
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SalmonGod

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5779 on: January 25, 2014, 05:59:15 pm »

Quote
I have digging to do later, but I am going to go on record that as far as I know (as someone who lives in New York), all the actions against the protestors in Occupy and the RNC are a local issue; i.e. a product of the same police force that gave you Stop & Frisk and was run by our former mayor: Bloomberg, 13th richest man in the world, and general enemy of anti-capitalists (Our public unions have been operating on the old contracts for several years now, trying to wait him out.)

But that's the thing.  Police behavior will always appear as a local issue, but we don't know when they may be acting with intelligence support or nudges from a federal agency.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 06:00:53 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

misko27

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5780 on: January 25, 2014, 08:08:14 pm »

Quote
I have digging to do later, but I am going to go on record that as far as I know (as someone who lives in New York), all the actions against the protestors in Occupy and the RNC are a local issue; i.e. a product of the same police force that gave you Stop & Frisk and was run by our former mayor: Bloomberg, 13th richest man in the world, and general enemy of anti-capitalists (Our public unions have been operating on the old contracts for several years now, trying to wait him out.)

But that's the thing.  Police behavior will always appear as a local issue, but we don't know when they may be acting with intelligence support or nudges from a federal agency.
If they are, without proof we can never know. We can't just assume it's there simply because we can't prove it doesn't.

I'm still busy, but here's an interesting article on Karzai openly distributing Taliban-esque anti-American propaganda.
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SalmonGod

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5781 on: January 25, 2014, 08:55:00 pm »

If they are, without proof we can never know. We can't just assume it's there simply because we can't prove it doesn't.

Yeah... and I'd rather not be left to wonder if I'm going to be treated like Jacob Applebaum the next time I step into an airport.  Or if I'm going to be treated with special cruelty over some minor offense because my presence at an occupy camp was registered into some list. 

You've expressed skepticism that any major civil rights abuses have occurred, acknowledged that some minor ones have, and summed it all up with the whole apparatus appears to be stupid rather than evil and that you need more proof to believe there's anything more going on.  What you haven't explained is why we should accept that this is an issue at all.  What's the point in debating just how dangerous these surveillance operations are, when we haven't established that there's any reason to excuse their existence in the first place?

This all started with "Why is data collection by corporations acceptable but not by government?"  I've answered that I can recognize benefits to accepting the former within reasonable limits, but I can't recognize any benefits to the latter.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 08:58:03 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

GlyphGryph

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5782 on: January 28, 2014, 10:01:24 am »

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2014/01/another_cover-up_in_chris_chri.html

So, worse than the Bridge Scandal? I dunno - firing everyone who dares to participate in indictments against your friends, that seems pretty bad. Explicitly telling the AG to botch cases against your friends (meaning that you're offering your friends effective legal immunity) is pretty bad. Ignoring court orders also seems pretty bad.1

Responding to the lawsuit by pushing for a gag order on everyone involved convinces me it is definitely going to be bad.
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Dutchling

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5783 on: January 28, 2014, 10:08:32 am »

Is Christi still considered the most sane Republican?
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GlyphGryph

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5784 on: January 28, 2014, 10:16:46 am »

He's the only sane "mainstream" Republican. He's sane in the same way Nixon was!
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kaijyuu

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5785 on: January 28, 2014, 10:29:42 am »

Bad at coverups, but otherwise effective?
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

misko27

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5786 on: January 28, 2014, 10:43:29 am »

I would rephrase that. He's the only sane mainstream Republican of note. Clearly, there must be others, but they aren't important enough to listen to. There was the Republican from Maine who has been leading compromise efforts, she seems nice.

Bridge scandal is interesting because being a douche to your constituents is not in itself, a crime (think what that would imply); doing it for political revenge, or as some people have suggested, to tank a government project, would be, but he would be within his rights to simply close the bridge entirely and flip off reporters. He image would tank, and he might get recalled, but he is allowed to do it.
http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2014/01/another_cover-up_in_chris_chri.html

So, worse than the Bridge Scandal? I dunno - firing everyone who dares to participate in indictments against your friends, that seems pretty bad. Explicitly telling the AG to botch cases against your friends (meaning that you're offering your friends effective legal immunity) is pretty bad. Ignoring court orders also seems pretty bad.1

Responding to the lawsuit by pushing for a gag order on everyone involved convinces me it is definitely going to be bad.
AMERICA STOP BEING INSANE! SERIOUSLY!

You're freaking me out!
New Jersey!=America. New Jersey=Detroit lite.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5787 on: January 28, 2014, 11:39:52 am »

I would rephrase that. He's the only sane mainstream Republican of note. Clearly, there must be others, but they aren't important enough to listen to. There was the Republican from Maine who has been leading compromise efforts, she seems nice.
Yeah that's why I put "mainstream" in quotes, heh. Unfortunately most of the Republicans I liked ended up getting jettisoned from the party and replaced with either worthless democrats or tea-party backed radical republicans.

There's a few left in the House that I like, but that's... really about it, I think.
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10ebbor10

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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5789 on: January 28, 2014, 01:00:53 pm »

Interesting

I wish to point out that the petition is labelled as a Woman's Issue...
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