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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 837896 times)

Owlbread

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5220 on: January 07, 2014, 08:17:57 pm »

I don't know if its also the case in Scotland, but it should be noted that some people are strongly against the lunch subsidy program. Most who take that position do so because they claim we can't afford it or that it is abused.

Some, like Representative Jack Kingston, have a more....creative view on the matter.
Quote from: Jack Kingston
"But one of the things I’ve talked to the secretary of agriculture about: Why don’t you have the kids pay a dime, pay a nickel to instill in them that there is, in fact, no such thing as a free lunch? Or maybe sweep the floor of the cafeteria -- and yes, I understand that that would be an administrative problem, and I understand that it would probably lose you money. But think what we would gain as a society in getting people -- getting the myth out of their head that there is such a thing as a free lunch."

Some Republicans really are just walking caricatures.
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Max White

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5221 on: January 07, 2014, 08:24:00 pm »

Can a republican who can't walk still be a caricatures?

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5222 on: January 07, 2014, 08:26:38 pm »

I imagine most people who can't walk have enough experience with the medical industry to not be Republicans.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Max White

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5223 on: January 07, 2014, 08:29:36 pm »

That is like saying most people who are low income earners would have enough experience on the bottom of the ladder to not be republicans.

It makes rational sense, but then people aren't rational.

Helgoland

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5224 on: January 07, 2014, 08:46:16 pm »

Night of the Walking Republicans?
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

wierd

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5225 on: January 07, 2014, 08:58:56 pm »

In some respects, I understand and can rationalize the perspective of the ultra-conservative as relating to the quoted issue.

It is a sad state of affairs, but there *is* some truth to the notion that you get more of what you pay for. However, it is not the true fault of the impoverished for their circumstance, and it certainly is not the fault of the child he would have sweeping floors and suffering social ostracism over.

Rather than try to spin it that way, he would be better served to suggest livably paying wages for government works projects, similar to the work programs produced by FDR. The problem is that such a suggestion is counter-intuitive with their resource allocation objectives. (Ahem).

The behavior of the ultra conservative is quite polar, and stark in its nature. They revel in the "us VS them!" Mantra, which is why they sensationalize nationalistic pride based propaganda ("America, Love it or Leave it!" And pals, like "America is #1!"), and also why they fixate on military expenditure, and shows of military might. This mode of behavior does not demonstrate much critical or rational thought. The core basis of the "Us VS others!" Impulse is directly implicated in the rather seedy reputation that this demographic has concerning racism, and the clearly irrational views they hold over domestic resource allocations, and fears about wealth distributions. It perfectly accepts and even glorifies the need for national intelligence agencies and their gross over-reaches in operation such as our NSA has been revealed to be, and the nebulous "them!" Are ascribed as basically anyone outside of the USA-- this can be clearly seen in some recent rhetoric on the comments sections of news websites for NYT and the Guardian concerning Edward Snowden. He fled the country, and applied for assylum in a foriegn country, (which for such persons equates to "THEM!"), and thus is "clearly a traitor", because his efforts have undermined the "US", and empowered the "them!" To ask very uncomfortable and damning questions. (They view this as aiding and abetting the enemy, and thus grounds for treason charges. Nevermind that they cannot definitively state who that "enemy" is. Their world view necessitates the existence of this malevolent force, and it gets blanket applied to everything "outside".)

Since their views are reactionary, impulsive, and irrational, they are deadly allergic to reasoned discussion, and typically resort immediately to fallacious arguments, mazes of circular reasoning, and outright character assasination to silence such discourse. You can find this in copious abundance on shows for known ultra-con mouthpieces, such as the bill o'reily show. It is also the driving factor behind the clearly suicidal behaviors seen by the "dark money" contributions from well know ultra-cons to their various "thinktank groups", like the Heritage foundation, for the purposes of creating bunk scientific publications to cast doubt on well founded objective research that conflicts with their worldviews. (Say HI for me, mr Koch.)

On the flipside, you have the equally deleterious (but in different ways) ultra-liberals, who seem to have no reasonable conception of modesty, integrity, honesty, or objective reality, but instead focus on their own worldview which emphasises a false assertion that utopia is possible, and that government should provide everything. This group is actually quite disingenuous in many respects. Ultracons are quite easy to read and predict, as their fear and paranoia based decision making follows a very specific pattern. The ultralibs (they are not actually liberals, btw.) on the other hand, cater to well intentioned but not well knowledgable people to attain political power using outright lies, then cater to their own private interests for self enrichment. Their primary supporters are idiological people who mean well, and see them as the "clearly better" alternative to che "clearly batshit insane" ultracons. However, voting for these people is equally irrational in the greater sense; everything they say is a lie, they do not actually produce policies intent on improving or normalizing the american social landscape (they thrive on the issues created by inequality, and actually would have a conflict of interest to actually resolve the problems they address in their campaign speeches.) The major accomplishments of this "silly party" (ultracons are the "very silly party") are things like copyright that lasts for lifetime of the creator, plus 70 years, with strong negotiations to make that into 120 years from their REAL constituents (just follow the campaign donation trail.), the patriot act, which was bipartisanly enacted and renewed twice now, (both silly and very silly parties profit from the resulting inequalities, just in different ways) chilling reductions in the powers of free speech, and boondoggles like the ACA. (Really. It's a travesty on paper.) Their MO is more difficult to provide a general rule for, as they appear to be more a motley assortment of smiling sociopaths than a coherent (in that it sticks together, not in that it is reasonable) idiological group like the ultracons.

Personally, I would pay huge sums of money to the campaign of a candidate that is frank, upfront, and presents their positions with well reasoned and established positions on hard evidence. They must not have questionable histories of quid pro quo (Obama has this in spades. Check out the loan agreements he got from his bank buddies while he was a congressman.), and must not promise the moon, a dinner and a box of chocolates while on campaign.

I have yet to encounter such a creature in the political quagmire that is US politics, however.


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PTTG??

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5226 on: January 07, 2014, 10:13:09 pm »

Two strawmen in one post, impressive.
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wierd

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5227 on: January 07, 2014, 10:23:44 pm »

A strawman, and a stereotype are basically the same thing. A stereotype is created to address the reality of dunbar's number. It is fundamentally impossible for me to qualitatively breakdown the behavior of each and every politician in the US political landscape, and still be capable of functioning in society.

As such, the creation of a best-fit mental model that approximates the group collectively is required. This is the stereotype. There is considerable evidence to show that humans create stereotypes, because they do in fact work-- for the general assemblage they are intended to address. Where they fail, is in attempting to have 100% alignment between a specific individual, and their closest stereotypical archetype. I do not make this association.

A strawman is a logical fallacy in which an individual presents an unrealistic or inaccurate model of an argument, and attempts to perform a reductio ad absurdium or other logical reduction on said model, instead of on the original argument or position.

What you yourself presented is itself a strawman. Asserting that the carefully created observational archetypes I described are strawmen, which is a mischaracterisation.

Swing batter. Swing.

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Andrew425

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5228 on: January 07, 2014, 10:24:19 pm »

Though it does help you figure out your political inclinations when you're reading that and are like, ohh that is so true! and for the other just shaking your head muttering that he's got it all wrong and only a fringe is part of that group
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5229 on: January 07, 2014, 10:26:21 pm »

It's that time again, folks. Here's my recent selection of Right Wing Watch goodies:

First up is everybody's favorite blood diamond slavemaster, The 700 Club's Pat Robertson, coming at us with a triple feature of warning us that John Kerry's Israeli-Palestinian peace talks will call down the Wrath of God on America, outing the climate science conspiracy to get rich by manipulating the world's energy supply, and struggling to remember what Jesus personally told him at his mountain resort about 2014. Praise God for sending us such a wonderful prophet.

Next up, we have Morningstar Ministry's Rick Joyner, telling us that the Founding Fathers intended for their secular constitutional republic to be the earthly model and predecessor for the coming Kingdom of God. Right. Sure. (Point and laugh.) Furthermore, Joyner and his good buddy Jim Bakker deliver the bad news that America has reached Ultimate Depravity, that Christianity will soon be an impressionable offense, and that if Christians don't Stand Up Now America will become a totalitarian state worse than any in the 20th century. So much for that whole "model of the Kingdom of God" thing.

Of course, it wouldn't be Right Wing Watch without a good dose of xenophobia, and so I bring you Pamela Geller's speech at the Horowitz's Restoration Weekend, saying Obama is a terror who is siding with "The Enemy", and that we must stand strong against the enemy or be sent to gulag. (I'm guessing The Enemy here is Muslims, though I can't make out the ad she held up.) Finally, I give you the return of the American Family Association's Sandy Rios, who claims that natural-born Americans are now a minority in D.C. (apparently she can discern them by sight), and that illegal immigrants are legion. Bonus points from one of Bryan Fischer's co-hosts (his name escapes me) warning that amnesty for illegal immigrants would be the death of the GOP.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 10:28:36 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

wierd

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5230 on: January 07, 2014, 10:51:08 pm »

Though it does help you figure out your political inclinations when you're reading that and are like, ohh that is so true! and for the other just shaking your head muttering that he's got it all wrong and only a fringe is part of that group

I agree-- most people will not wholly align with the stereotype. That is not the purpose of the stereotype. The purpose of the stereotype is to function as an abstract place holder for a large demographic composed of many persons. It represents the statistical mean, not the individual sample.

Most people, when reading such a postulated archtypical stereotype, will evaluate it against the single sample of the self-- and when it does not completely match, decry the stereotype as inaccurate-- much like PTTG did above, referring to it as a strawman.

That is not the purpose of the stereotype. The stereotype applies to the faceless gestalt, not the faces in that crowd.  "A single republican" is NOT to GOP.  A generality that applies to the GOP as a whole will probably not align 100% with a single republican, who is a member of that party.

Those two stereotypes above represent "Conservative congressmen" and "Liberal congressmen" respectively. They do not, nor are they intended to represent any specific conservative congressman, nor any specific liberal congressman.  That was the error I pointed out above.
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misko27

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5231 on: January 07, 2014, 10:57:23 pm »

On a wholly unrelated note, The bill to preserve unemployment benefits picks up the six votes to break the filibuster and move to debate, surprising literally everyone and making democrats to go into "Wait, what? This might actually happen, quick think of a compromise" mode.

And I thought that, traditionally, Democrats are the No Ideas Party, and Republicans are the Bad Ideas Party.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5232 on: January 07, 2014, 10:59:14 pm »

No, you've definitely got that backwards. Hell, a pejorative name for the GOP in recent years has been "the Party of No".
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

wierd

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5233 on: January 07, 2014, 11:09:29 pm »

It's simply their being reactionary.

It is quite possible that they cannot help themselves, and honestly believe the rhetoric of the koolaid.

Thankfully, individual people in the group can be shocked into questioning the party when it does something particularly rediculous. Sadly, the rest of the party typically assimilates this defection as being "a liberal traitor", even though the defector still mostly aligns with the conservative spectrum.

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Owlbread

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Re: FJ's Murrican Politics Megathread 2: So dysfunction. Much Congress. Wow.
« Reply #5234 on: January 07, 2014, 11:29:01 pm »

Here is an old article from September 2012 I've only just discovered. It explores the idea of Barack Obama being similar in many ways to the UK's "One Nation Tories", those specifically led by Disraeli. Obama is compared to Disraeli in the article. The other comparison that's put forward though is between Obama and the old, turn-of-the-century Liberal leaders/Prime Ministers like old Asquith.

Perhaps the issue is more of political parties abandoning their more radical principles, usually in a bid to move as close to the centre as possible to win votes. When Western political parties do that they all start to look the same. The fact that the British Conservative Party, "New Labour" and the Democrats look similar and have an affinity with one another, at least to a certain extent, should be no surprise.

I understand that Noam Chomsky stated recently that, had Obama come to power several decades ago (suspend your disbelief), he would probably have been a Rockefeller Republican. Today he, and a number of his colleagues, now embody what those Republicans would stand for today.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 11:42:32 pm by Owlbread »
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