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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[DWC]

People die in wars. There is no way to prevent every civilian causality, especially when they are hanging out with combatants in the same house or room.

[Scoops Novel]

People die in wars. There is no way to prevent every civilian causality, especially when they are hanging out with combatants in the same house or room.

The point being, this has not been weighed as it should be. Look at Sheb's point, and address that.

[misko27]

My god, It sucks balls to be Obama.


Move to the left? Left goes "Too late for that, and not enough", and Right goes "Bullshit asshole never liked us". Move to the right? Right goes "Too late for that, and not enough" and the Left goes "The Bull-fucking shit is this you Arch Conservative?".


Seriously, why do you all hate him? And where is this silent 48% that supports the guy? Maybe Obama is secretly a moderate, and the outer 25% on each side hates him (More like 15% Left, 35% right), while the center 50 that don't care about politics likes him.

[Scoops Novel]

No one trusts politicians by default, and Obama's unusually high good will reserve has been tapped down to the usual levels over the years.

[Owlbread]

People die in wars. There is no way to prevent every civilian causality, especially when they are hanging out with combatants in the same house or room.

But Obama took it upon himself to cry in public over around 20 children being killed in Newtown, even though together with Bush (the bulk of the attacks were from Obama's administration) he has personally signed off attacks that killed literally 10 times that number of children. Basically, those 180-200 children that have been killed by drone attacks don't matter as much as American children. That's my beef with him. I could understand it if he put up a memorial to the civilians that have been killed through collateral damage, or publicly apologised. He hasn't and isn't going to. Hell, those kids are worth less than dogs. Even war dogs get a memorial in the USA.

Move to the left? Left goes "Too late for that, and not enough", and Right goes "Bullshit asshole never liked us". Move to the right? Right goes "Too late for that, and not enough" and the Left goes "The Bull-fucking shit is this you Arch Conservative?".

The problem is that Obama is too late with the policies we want and doesn't do enough. I'm sorry if that makes us look contrary, he's still shit.

[misko27]

But still.

Medea Benjamin, a co-founder of the activist group Code Pink, interrupted Mr. Obama’s speech, shouting that he should release Guantánamo detainees, stop C.I.A. drone strikes and apologize to Muslims for killing so many of them. “Abide by the the rule of law!” she yelled as security personnel removed her from the auditorium. “You’re a constitutional lawyer!”

Senator Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, the top Republican on the Intelligence Committee, was sharper in reaction. “The president’s speech today will be viewed by terrorists as a victory,” he said. “Rather than continuing successful counterterrorism activities, we are changing course with no clear operational benefit.”

Actually, I've decided Obama is the last Politician in the old sense of the word, that is, someone who engages in politics. Everyone from now on will be totally driven by sheer ideology, and will never compromise. Between Gerrymandering and all these news, the Intense Polarization will never let up till something big happens.

Frankly, I prefer politicians who are vaguely corrupt and Compromise their values to the things we have now. Then at least the government wouldn't be suiciding, and might feasibly be able to react to events. Now we have nothing.

On a funnier note, anyone remember a Mr. Wiener?

[Scoops Novel]

Actual idealists, or supposedly politically beneficial idealists?

[DWC]

People die in wars. There is no way to prevent every civilian causality, especially when they are hanging out with combatants in the same house or room.

But Obama took it upon himself to cry in public over around 20 children being killed in Newtown, even though together with Bush (the bulk of the attacks were from Obama's administration) he has personally signed off attacks that killed literally 10 times that number of children. Basically, those 180-200 children that have been killed by drone attacks don't matter as much as American children. That's my beef with him. I could understand it if he put up a memorial to the civilians that have been killed through collateral damage, or publicly apologised. He hasn't and isn't going to.

I think 20 children probably died in car accidents today and I don't think the president cried about them either. What a bastard, right?

You are not seriously compared a school shooting to a a bombing in a war are you? He signed off on attacks to kill combatants and deranged violent people. Anybody else killed was unintentional, while something like a school shooting is intentional. There is a reason why intent is factored into manslaughter cases, hitting a kid on your way to work with your car is not the same offense as intentionally running them down.

And no, Pakistani kids don't matter as much to a president because his responsibility is protecting Americans, not every single miserable soul on the planet. I'd probably blame the combatant for dragging his kids around knowing they could be blown up in a drone strike at any given moment.

[Scoops Novel]

DWC, it hammered home the fakeness.

[Sheb]

Why should we like Obama? What did he do? Prosecuting whistle blowers? Making the whole NWFP shit their pants at night not knowing if some guy at his desk in Virginia will decide to blow their house? There is some good bits in Obamacare I guess, but that's it.

Being hated by both righ and left doesn't mean you're doing something good, it just means people hates you.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

It seems as if no one has the fortitude to even suggest changing the PATRIOT act or other near-transgressing-on-privacy-but-not-sortof-kindof policies while complaining about the effects of said policies. Especially not anyone in the senate.

Obama appears to have suggested to change some concrete bits of the 'drone policy,' [a nice ambiguous term that never should've been slipped into the media, it just helps obfuscate what we're talking about, and that's post-911 changes to CIA and military operational capabilities] though. I appreciate the step, even one is better than congress' none.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/us/politics/pivoting-from-a-war-footing-obama-acts-to-curtail-drones.html

[DWC]

It seems as if no one has the fortitude to even suggest changing the PATRIOT act or other near-transgressing-on-privacy-but-not-sortof-kindof policies while complaining about the effects of said policies. Especially not anyone in the senate.

Obama appears to have suggested to change some concrete bits of the 'drone policy,' [a nice ambiguous term that never should've been slipped into the media, it just helps obfuscate what we're talking about, and that's post-911 changes to CIA and military operational capabilities] though. I appreciate the step, even one is better than congress' none.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/us/politics/pivoting-from-a-war-footing-obama-acts-to-curtail-drones.html

Especially not the senate. The act passed 98 to 1 in the Senate, the sole dissenter being Russ Fiengold

But yeah, the PATRIOT act is only moderately vile. Most of the language is pretty specific and not as open to abuse as people might think. The right-wing dystopia predicted during the Bush administration never came and since nobody innocent has been shipped off to the death camps over it yet, nobody really cares about it anymore.

[Nadaka]

It seems as if no one has the fortitude to even suggest changing the PATRIOT act or other near-transgressing-on-privacy-but-not-sortof-kindof policies while complaining about the effects of said policies. Especially not anyone in the senate.

Obama appears to have suggested to change some concrete bits of the 'drone policy,' [a nice ambiguous term that never should've been slipped into the media, it just helps obfuscate what we're talking about, and that's post-911 changes to CIA and military operational capabilities] though. I appreciate the step, even one is better than congress' none.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/us/politics/pivoting-from-a-war-footing-obama-acts-to-curtail-drones.html

Especially not the senate. The act passed 98 to 1 in the Senate, the sole dissenter being Russ Fiengold

But yeah, the PATRIOT act is only moderately vile. Most of the language is pretty specific and not as open to abuse as people might think. The right-wing dystopia predicted during the Bush administration never came and since nobody innocent has been shipped off to the death camps over it yet, nobody really cares about it anymore.

Absolutely no. I've read the patriot act and it grants incredibly vague and broad powers that directly contradict the constitution. It is a gross violation of American liberty. And yes, quite a few innocent people have been shipped off to a "torture camp" in the form of Guantanamo Bay. Just because you don't care does not mean that other people don't.

And we are definitely are living in a right wing dystopia. Obama is not a liberal, he is a right wing conservative corporatist as bad as Bush.

[SalmonGod]

People die in wars. There is no way to prevent every civilian causality, especially when they are hanging out with combatants in the same house or room.

I would be more inclined to accept this statement if the majority of people killed in the conflict were actually enemy combatants.  The reality is the vast majority of people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan have been civilians, and the protocol for selecting targets and carrying out their remote executions has been constantly criticized for being incredibly careless.  I've seen multiple testimonies that they often target people for drone strikes just because they're suspected of being somewhat connected to some terrorist activity, and that's enough to justify methods of killing that will result in several civilians being killed for every suspected terrorist.  And then there's the part where they have the drones hang around and shoot down first responders to the attack, such as ambulances that come and try to tend to that collateral damage.

Our war conduct for the last 10 years has been terrorism in every sense of the word, and Obama hasn't improved anything at all over Bush.

But yeah, the PATRIOT act is only moderately vile. Most of the language is pretty specific and not as open to abuse as people might think. The right-wing dystopia predicted during the Bush administration never came and since nobody innocent has been shipped off to the death camps over it yet, nobody really cares about it anymore.

Right.....

Besides that info dump, I have some links about how the Patriot Act and similar powers created by Bush and expanded by Obama have been used to target peaceful political dissent, especially the Occupy movement, but I don't have time to dig them up right now.

[DWC]

People die in wars. There is no way to prevent every civilian causality, especially when they are hanging out with combatants in the same house or room.

I would be more inclined to accept this statement if the majority of people killed in the conflict were actually enemy combatants.  The reality is the vast majority of people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan have been civilians, and the protocol for selecting targets and carrying out their remote executions has been constantly criticized for being incredibly careless.  I've seen multiple testimonies that they often target people for drone strikes just because they're suspected of being somewhat connected to some terrorist activity, and that's enough to justify methods of killing that will result in several civilians being killed for every suspected terrorist.  And then there's the part where they have the drones hang around and shoot down first responders to the attack, such as ambulances that come and try to tend to that collateral damage.

Our war conduct for the last 10 years has been terrorism in every sense of the word, and Obama hasn't improved anything at all over Bush.

While the vast majority of deaths in Iraq/ Afghanistan have been civilians, it wasn't the US or it's allies killing them. Both are civil wars with the foreigners in the middle, it's not some one-sided occupation. Also, you mistake what a 'first responder' is in this case. The insurgents will recover their own, they have burial requirements and have to be put in the ground within 24 hours of death. 9 times out of 10 it's other insurgents recovering their buddy, nobody else is really going to know where they were. It's not some civilian ambulance, they don't even really have those in Iraq and Afghanistan and they never responded to war causalities anyways. No ambulance is going to come bouncing over the bomb craters and past the tanks to go get some bits and pieces of some dead guy that was blown up with a missile.

I'm not sure where they get their information for their targets in the 'drone war' but one problem that came up I believe is that, these tribal people in afghanistan and whatnot all really fucking hate each other and they have these feuds that last for generations. This is really very common. So what happens is one family will claim to be ratting out the Taliban and convince these intelligence people that some important Talib guy is at this house, to have their neighbor blown up or raided and the Americans claim another victory. Presumably, they vet their information a little better then that, but I would not be surprised if this happens more often then they'd like.

After all, the official story for entering the Iraq war was given by an extremely sketchy Iraqi informant named 'Curveball' that fabricated all that crap about mobile chemical weapon factories and all, in the hopes of getting out of Iraq. The man was a chemist by trade and so he knew details that made for a convincing case. I'd not be surprised if this kind of thing still happens.