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Author Topic: Dark Heresy (And other Warhammer 40,000 RPGs)  (Read 18767 times)

Devling

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Dark Heresy (And other Warhammer 40,000 RPGs)
« on: February 07, 2013, 01:02:23 am »

Anybody have experince with this game?
I recently got the Inquistor's handbook in the mail (I already got the core rulebook a while ago) and I wanted to run a game with my friends, so I'm wondering if anyone has experince(as a GM or player), and would be able to provide tips/advice. Especially on the investagative and properly cementing GRIMDARKness in the mind of the playes.
Stories would also be appreiceated.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:19:43 pm by Devling »
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 07:07:05 am »

Watch Blade Runner and the original Ghost in the Shell film for some neat encounter ideas. I've always admired the action scenes from GitS in particular. I would go for a more industrial feel if I wanted to create a hive city, but you could always take your campaign in a more cyberpunk direction.

Always keep the setting in mind when drawing up encounters. If your Acolytes are investigating a crime ring deep in a hive city, it's better to save your awesome battle with Chaos for a later campaign.

Perhaps the best thing you can do for your players is to not try too hard to make it grimdark. Darkness doesn't necessarily have to mean unending war or horrific violence. You can add all sorts of nasty little twists to your campaign: drug abuse, poverty, starvation, disease, distrust, disloyalty, loss of loved ones, and more that I can't think of right now.

I know of some GM's who like to include heavy subjects in their campaigns, such as sexual abuse or parallels to IRL religion and racism. I was never one of those, but for the love of God talk to your players before you include sensitive topics like those mentioned. It's okay to spoil some details of your campaign. The best GMs always talk to their players to find out how they feel about what's going on. Role-playing games are about everybody having fun, and communication is the biggest step you can make towards being a better GM. I've been in enough crap games to know, and I've even been the crap GM quite a few times. Talk to your players before and after the game, find out what they want, and try to give it to them while still keeping the spirit of your ideas.
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nenjin

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 10:33:37 am »

I'm running a game of it right now.

We pretty heavily house-ruled the game, because brand new Dark Heresy characters are weak and don't know shit about shit. While that sounds like a good starting place, in Dark Heresy, it results in TONS and TONS of failures. Failures to do simple, basic things. It's been dubbed "Clown Shoes" by my players, because even simple tasks like trying to clear a jam border on an 80% failure rate, and new player characters rolled up by the book end up looking like buffoons when they try to do anything, or are faced with the slightest negative modifier.

Dark Heresy further divides combat from investigation, and can't make up its mind whether it wants PC/NPC interactions to be driven by dice rolls, roleplaying, both or neither. The end result is that non-combat PCs pay just as much XP as combat characters, are basically useless in combat, and have to spend experience to buy things like Scholastic Knowledge: Munitorium Procedures. I rarely if ever ask people to make knowledge rolls. Who wants to spend XP on an ability that says "either you know this, or you don't, the die determines"? How useless does an adept feel when they've spent 400xp on knowledge skills only to have the dice say "Yeah, sorry, you just don't know."

So what we did was a) give everyone access to every BASIC skill in the game for free. That means everyone has a chance to dodge, to parry, to swim instead of leaving them with a 95% chance of failure tying their shoes, walking and talking at the same time or breathing. Secondly, we cut the XP costs for any non-combat skill by half, to encourage people to buy those abilities (or to not tax the shit out of them for buying something they need.) We trimmed down the attribute advances so you don't end up paying 1500 XP for an attribute advance outside of your scheme. We cleaned up the dual-wielding rules, changed the rates of healing to be more forgiving (having a character get critically wounded at the start of the session, according to the rules, puts them out of commission for at least two weeks. And that's with quality medical care. It can be hard to reconcile healing and recovery with your adventure or with the other PCs), some other stuff. Basically, the goal was: get players to a place where they can be heroic, quicker, instead of making them fail left and right like your average, schlub NPCs.

My biggest general advice for running the game would be: know the combat rules, because they are crunchy as hell. Know the combat actions like the back of your hand. Know the combat modifiers. Know the weapon trait effects. There's a rule for just about everything in Dark Heresy, even when maybe there shouldn't be.

2nd biggest piece of advice: Decide how granular you want combat to be and how closely you want to follow the book on it. Dark Heresy is in many ways modeled after the table top war games; it tries to include as many rules that echo the table top as possible. So, for example, cover? Yeah, tracking the actual AP value of the cover all the PCs and NPCs are standing in, as it changes over the course of the fight, is a bookkeeping headache. As is ammo usage. As is trying to decide how things work in a 300m fight versus 100m fight versus a 50m fight. If you're going to have a combat involving more than 8 individuals, I'd map it out before hand. Figure out ranges. Establish where cover is.

A Dark Heresy combat is far more tactical than many other RPGs. The GM has a wealth of options when it comes to combat, as do the players. So you have to make judgment calls every turn. For example: there are two PCs and their two NPCs, all in cover. The friendly NPCs are closest to the enemy NPCs. The enemy NPCs could shoot whoever they want; they could throw grenades, fire on full auto, or charge in like psychos. As the GM, you have to decide who gets it, how they get it, and you have to factor in all the modifiers for success and failure. It's not really like D&D where you can just roll a die and point to a party member and say "The Orc attacks you." These are ranged combats that be over 300m in distance, with tons of factors included. So I often feel like I'm playing a table top war game when I'm running Dark Heresy. For example: Full Auto attacks are the bread and butter of a successful combat. Numerically, there's no better way to attack someone than with a full auto weapon, even at extreme ranges. That's how my players roll. If *I* did the same thing to them, gave every enemy NPC an autorifle and they just blasted full auto every turn, my PCs would be dead. So I pull a lot of punches. Bad guys sometimes only fire single shot or burst, even though they, numerically, don't have the best chance of success. They'll shoot their NPCs more often (or at least prioritize them when they're the closest), because otherwise they'd just ignore the NPCs and kill the PCs, since they're the ones that really matter.

Bottomline: there is an absolute fuck ton of things going on in combat you have to consider, track and remember. I'd spend the majority of your time studying the combat rules, and even running mock combats.

On setting: I've read, I'd like to think, probably 60% to 70% of all the Imperial and Space Marine fluff out there. So I have the benefit of a lot off source material for ideas. As isnotlogical said, you first need to figure out what kind of players you have. For example, my players? They're not interested in a lot of gravitas. They kind of want to be badass who don't afraid of nothing and shoot people at the drop of the hat because it's lulzy. They don't necessarily love or respect the 40k universe, so their characters and their approaches are often gooberish. For example, last night, they'd gotten through a big combat, backed up by a ton of NPCs they'd pressed into Inquisitorial service. One NPC, a civilian with a pistol, managed to almost get killed right at the start of the fight. Yet he hung on, right at the cusp of death and continued shooting back at the mutants and actually doing better than many of the other NPCs. At the end of the fight, an NPC medic rushes to him to try and stabilize him. What does one of my players do? Walks up to the civilian he recruited, who fought by his side like a good Imperial citizen, and with the medic sitting there packing gauze into his wounds...blows his head off. Why? Because my players are kind of senseless dicks sometimes. There was no reason to kill him, at all. But that's how my players roll. I gave him several corruption points for that little stunt.

So. Figure out what kind of players you have and whether all the details and seriousness you've invested into the campaign will be wasted on them. Then start orchestrating your setting. I'd like to think I keep it pretty grimdark without straying into real life grimdark. 40k has enough misery to go around just based in the lore, it's not necessary (IMO) to really try and twist the emotional knife with strong, overt themes. Sometimes the best way to deliver that sense of grimdark is in passing, not setting it directly in front of the players and DEMANDING an emotional reaction. Players hate that, IMO, and you'll often be disappointed by their reactions. This basically describes my players right now. If I tried to cook up some tortured, heart wrenching scene because I wanted a reaction out them...there's a 50% chance at least they'd just laugh and make jokes to erase the discomfort. So why bother? Make the setting grimdark, the landscape, the details. DON'T throw "Poor Me" characters at them, or expect your players to gallantly rush in to save people. Maybe that's how some of your players are wired, but generally, 40k breeds cynicism and contempt. I know it certainly does in my players. They care about themselves first and foremost, survival, and true to Inquisitorial form, they're willing to sacrifice anyone and anything necessary to live and win. If I'm lucky, that works with my story. If I'm not, they're often shitting on or laughing at things I didn't expect them to treat that way. Once they realized the kind of power that comes from working for the Inquisition, they started getting very trigger happy and talking down to NPCs. Which isn't necessarily out of character for Dark Heresy....but it makes it very hard to find something that "sticks" with them.

I can try and sum up the common themes of 40k that makes it grimdark though:

-Struggles against hopeless odds.
-An uncaring, faceless bureaucracy.
-Mechanization and industrialization to the detriment of society and the environment.
-The worth of an individual's life is zero.
-The worth of several thousand lives is slightly more than zero.
-The worth of several million lives is 1.
-The worth of several billion lives is somewhere betwewen 1 and 2.
-The worth of an entire planet and its resources is 10.
-Every day contains a little bit of Sophie's Choice: two options, both horrible, yet you've got to pick one.
-Intolerance, religious dogma & fanaticism, racism (human vs. not human) and fear of the unknown.
-Technology as magic and religion, a lack of understanding technology.
-Decay. Structural, social, physical.
-Decadence. 
-Everything that isn't human wants to kill you.
-Paranoia, distrust and suspicion of your fellow man.
-Hell is real and is always just moments away from spilling out into your reality.
-Knowledge is dangerous.
-Phyrric victories more often that actual victories.

Basically I just try and keep this in mind as a GM when it comes to my settings: The Imperium is the way it is for a reason. There's a reason behind everything. Bad things happen in the Imperium all the time and that has guided how society operates. I mean, really put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives in that world. It's gakking awful.

Lastly, I guess, is VARIETY. GWS is big on saying "The canon is that there's no true canon." With billions of Imperial worlds, some who haven't had contact with the Imperium for hundreds or thousands of years, there's a lot of room for things to be different. Not every world needs to be a hive slum, a death world or a battlefield. Not every Imperial governor needs to be a corrupt Chaos worshiper, or a cynical, self-serving bureaucrat. Not every planet is infested with Chaos cults. Not every NPC is a faceless, emotionally dead mook. Not every NPC likes, respects or fears the Inquisition. Sometimes one of the greatest joys of 40k is subverting people's expectations....then reinforcing them. Example: The PCs get sent a Pleasure World to do something. It's nice, clean, the people are happy and untroubled by war, the cities are beautiful and everyone's hopeful.

Then you have a traitor in the Imperial Navy launch a planet killer missile and wipe out half of civilization.

Ultimately it's up to you what kind of game you want to run. Maybe you want to subvert all those themes and let your players be true, kick ass heroes of the Imperium. It has a lot to do with how your players will react to it. For example, my players do NOT like getting bummed out. They hate Phyrric victories. Despite having played and known of 40k for over 15 years, they still don't really like the tropes and themes that make up a lot of it. You have to find the balance in what they will tolerate, and what you will tolerate.

That was a lot of blah blah. If you got any other questions, feel free to ask.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:52:36 pm by nenjin »
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Devling

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 09:48:52 pm »

Right, so that was a pretty involved post. Thanks Nenjin and Itisnotlogical for sharing your advice.

I defiently don't want to be heavy handed, GRIMDARK child murder or whatever. This is very much a friends coming over to play a game.
Saying that I'm not going to do any houserules, mostly because I'm inexperinced and I would like to try playing some before I make any kind of ruling on the rules. I don't want people rerolling every ten minutes, but I won't my players to be punished by mistakes. I think the rules will do a decent job of that.
There will be many minutes of everyone chatting because I'm looking up the combat rules.
Yeah, I'm not going to memerorize the combat rules by tommorow.
Is the adventure in the basic rulebook any good? I probably just going to run that, since I'm inexperinced with the system and GMing in general.
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nenjin

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 10:14:37 pm »

To be honest I didn't even read through it, I knew what I wanted to run. I'd assume it's playable though.

Dark Heresy is pretty punishing as it was published. New PCs and the average threats they face are on fairly even footing. It loads people up on penalties and when characters are new, a -10 or -20 can demolish their chances of succeeding. If they aren't skilled in the thing they're doing (shooting an unfamiliar weapon, attempting a basic skill they didn't train), they pretty much need an 01 to succeed. The average chance for success, for a character with ok stats, no modifiers, trained in what they're doing....is 35 to 40%. Not great odds. And characters can get catastrophically wounded, meaning they're not dead but they're basically not functional either. Remind players to use FATE points, they can really help smooth over crappy dice rolls...or recoup wounds, even critical wounds, without needing a medkit and someone with Medicae. There's nothing like Potions of Healing in Dark Heresy, short of a psyker power I believe, just immediate first aid if you're not too wounded...and then a looooonnngg stay in the Medicae ward.

I'd really caution against running large combats at first too. Even 5 enemies is a sizeable amount to keep track of, and I and others have GM'd for a quite a few years. The book makes a lot of noise about PCs recruiting NPCs, and that adds a lot of time combat. In the last 5 games of Fantasy Flight 40k RPGs we've played, combats with 10 or more combatants have averaged 2 hours. And two to three people at the table are intimately familiar with the rules. It's not that the rules are complicated, there's just a lot of them, especially in combat. Test to hit (do a fair amount of math), test to dodge or parry (do more math), roll damage, often multiple times in multiple locations, maybe roll a crit, test for crit, do more math to figure out how much damage made it through cover, armor and toughness, possibly roll on the crit table, resolve what happened on the crit table, then do book keeping....then you move on to the NEXT guy.

And like I said, it's not necessarily about punishing the players for making mistakes. It's about being very hard for players to do anything, even stuff they're supposed to be good at. That's why combat ranges are really important. Running short range combat gives everyone (enemies included) a lot more hits. Putting guys with basic weapons (rifles) up against guys with pistols is an inherently unfair fight at ~100m.

Don't get me wrong, I like the game plenty. But it's very rules heavy. Good luck! (And the Emperor protects.)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 10:00:49 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
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Man of Paper

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2013, 06:33:10 am »

I'm one of those guys that has a friend or two at a time into playing a tabletop RP at a time if I'm lucky, so as a GM I also tend to have a character invested as well. DH was one of my favorites. Me and a buddy were both Guardsmen (Cadian and Death Korps) tasked with taking care of a gang of thugs who just so happened to be guilty of base-level Chaos worship (no actual Chaos stuff, just tats and accessories bearing symbols of Chaos) in a Hive city. After some investigations we found ourselves outside of their headquarters. We tried to bluff our way past the two dudes guarding the door. That did not work, however, so we Jason Bourne'd the both of them simultaneously. My buddy took out his guard quick and cleanly, thrusting a knife clean into his heart. I slammed mine against the wall behind him, missed my attack and punched the wall, and was fail-countered by the thug. With the advantage of surprise lost, I whipped out my stub revolver and sent a round through his gut.

The noise alerted the thugs inside, and a couple rounds tore through the door. I grabbed my victim and used him as a meat shield, standing directly in front of the door while my friend opened it, revealing a hallway resembling a gray dim school hall, where the walls are all shoddily painted cinderblock with a little inlet area every so often at the doors to rooms branching off of the hallway. We got the jump on the thugs and wound up taking two out (Death Korps had his hunting rifle out at this point, I was still using my stub revolver). The remaining three guys, now in really good cover, opened fire.

We had decided, when I took the meat shield, that damage would be calculated normally on the shield of meat, his body parts protecting the appropriate parts on myself. The first salvo blew off his right arm. I kept a tight grip around his neck and we returned fire, killing another opponent. The next shots shredded my shield's left arm and blew off the right leg at the knee. Our concentrated fire eliminated the second to last opponent, who blew my meat shield's brains all over the place. I dropped the corpse and took cover by the door while my friend took out the last guy.

We went down the hallway, listening into each room before kicking in doors. We found a few people all sorts of out of it due to drug abuse until we got to the last room (obviously). In it we heard someone swearing up a storm, throwing things around and all sorts of angry butthurt stuff. The both of us attempted to coerce him out, and got a response in the form of a shotgun cocking and a less than mature comment about the status of our manhoods (menhood?). So I tried to kick in the door and failed. My friend talked some shit about me being weak and tried to kick in the door, failed even harder, and hurt his foot. I used my autogun to put a few rounds into the lock and rammed through the door, knocking it off it's hinges and tripping all over myself as I stumblefucked into the room. Luckily my friend got the initiative, ran into the room past me, managed to get missed by two close-range shotgun blasts, vault over a desk separating us and the last thug, and landed on him, his knife tasting blood once more. On his body we find drugs, drug paraphernalia, and a pendant bearing the Mark of Khorne.

It was a short session, but it was our first (and sadly to this date, only) stab at DH. However, as I said, it had already become my favorite. I did make sure the atmosphere was properly grim, with a smattering of dark, but the 40K Universe makes that abundantly easy. Really, all I had to do much work on was the build-up to the encounter and figuring out how to have a character investigate without using my knowledge of the whole situation (PROTIP: Make your character not social at all if you're running a character as GM. It gives you a reason to avoid the investigation and just stand there looking badass. Dice rolls determine what you detect using your keen powers of observation, and you can make up some rules to determine various other factors. Work-arounds are easy!)
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Devling

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2013, 05:08:43 pm »

Cool stories guys.
I would like to hear more.
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nenjin

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2013, 09:33:03 pm »

I've been running Dark Heresy for about 4 or 5 months now. I run every other week (when I can because of work or travel and the holidays), alternating with another player who runs a Black Crusade game. I have 5 players total, of which I can usually get 3 or 4 of them per session. A Ministorum Priest who is the front man of the group, who uses the Ministorum to gain personal power while seeming pious and dedicated to Emperor: Govelius Pwnus. We use his house for gaming so he's been there for it all. A Feral World Assassin of few words and much death, who worships the Emperor in his form of the Raptor of his homeworld: Raptorman. An Arbite from a noble family who believes in hard justice: Appelius Gracchus. An Imperial Guardsmen who reminiscences about his previous deployments and who (literally) reads from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer during game: Raltus Metalus. And a Tech Priest who is a robot, who hasn't been there for as many sessions as others: Diode. We've run about 4 sessions now.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 07:32:01 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2013, 07:46:31 pm »

I'm now officially hosting a Dark Heresy game via Mibbit IRC, with a dice bot.  I've done quite a bit of Dark Heresy.

One of the biggest issues is lethality.  In their attempts to capture the feel of Tabletop 40k, a lot of actions have a very small chance of catastrophic failure.  This isn't a huge deal in Tabletop, where things generally aren't persistent and your dudes are just little plastic spacemen.  In a persistent RPG though, it's a big deal.  As they say, if you roll the dice enough times, it'll come up 1 eventually.  When that means your psyker is now an unbound daemonhost, and Inquisition precedent says "don't bother fighting it, just nuke the planet from orbit until there's no one left for him to kill," that's bad for your campaign.  Rogue Trader and the later games mitigated a lot of this, but they're also generally not as good as Dark Heresy.
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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 08:34:57 pm »

Can ya link me? I want in. Utter noob, remember.
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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2013, 09:58:50 pm »

Well, I'm really asking people this time around to be familiar with the game.  Teaching people to play takes up valuable game time.
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nenjin

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2013, 10:12:07 pm »

I'm now officially hosting a Dark Heresy game via Mibbit IRC, with a dice bot.  I've done quite a bit of Dark Heresy.

One of the biggest issues is lethality.  In their attempts to capture the feel of Tabletop 40k, a lot of actions have a very small chance of catastrophic failure.  This isn't a huge deal in Tabletop, where things generally aren't persistent and your dudes are just little plastic spacemen.  In a persistent RPG though, it's a big deal.  As they say, if you roll the dice enough times, it'll come up 1 eventually.  When that means your psyker is now an unbound daemonhost, and Inquisition precedent says "don't bother fighting it, just nuke the planet from orbit until there's no one left for him to kill," that's bad for your campaign.  Rogue Trader and the later games mitigated a lot of this, but they're also generally not as good as Dark Heresy.

That's why FATE refills every session, players should really tap themselves out each time or use up any left overs at the end of a session to recoup Wounds. And why the GM shouldn't be stingy with awarding new FATE points if people have had to burn theirs' to keep going. That's how characters end up with all the bad ass scars, by almost getting killed by a heavy weapon three times :P
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Yoink

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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2013, 01:47:47 am »

Oh man, now I'm itching to regale you all with stories of my 40kRPG experiences... But then I'm not sure if that game counted as Dark Heresy or not, seeing as it was officially Rogue Trader, using characters genned DH style, and eventually switching over to Black Crusade-style experience spending. But oh well, it was amazing. That was a Bay12 game, actually.

Damn, reading this thread (and those stories- that was quite a good read, Nenjin, despite what you've said about your players!) has made me really really miss playing RPGs. :( Cthulhu, not sure if I count as experienced with the system or not, but if you're looking for players... *shrug*
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Re: Dark Heresy
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2013, 01:50:21 am »

That counts.  All the games are basically the same, system-wise.
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Devling

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Re: Dark Heresy (And other Warhammer 40,000 RPGs)
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2013, 09:20:14 pm »

Yeah, these stories are always entertaining.
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